Re: w-glide

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

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> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
>
>
> Translation and a few comments
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Evelyn" <schofieldev@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Otherwise, how about making the Igylliones wÄglarze
> > > > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%99glarz_(zaw%C3%B3d)
> > > > > ie.
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charcoal
> > > > > makers (why doesn't that profession have a name in
> > > > > English?)?
> > > >
> > > > But it does - collier.
> > >
>
> > The problem probably is that English colliers, when coal mines
> > opened, continued as coal miners, whereas elsewhere those
> > professions are seen as separate. This means that English collier
> > has a wider definition than
> > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6hler
> > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonero_(ocupaci%C3%B3n)
> > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%99glarz_(zaw%C3%B3d)
> > http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulsvier
> > etc.
>
> cf
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/collier
> 'collier (plural colliers)
> ...
> 3. A nickname used by the traveller community, referring to a non-traveller'
>
> That would match a scenario where some KÃ¶hler/Carboneri etc in
> England shifted to working in coal mines, while others took to the
> road. Travellers are the British social equivalent of the
> descendants of the Continental KÃ¶hler ... etc
>
>
> > The kulsviere in Denmark had an identity as a separate people,
> > keeping to themselves in the forest (Sw. tattare, Da. tatere).
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_and_Swedish_Travellers
> > http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tater
> >
>
> So, I repeat,
> Rick Derksen
> Etymological Dictionary
> of the Slavic Inherited Lexicon
>
> '*Ã²,glÑ m. i (a) "coal"
> CS OCS o,glÑ (Ps. Sin., Supr.) m.(i)
> E Ru. Ãºgolâ m.(jo), Gsg. Ãºglja, Gsg. ugljÃ¡
> W Cz. uhel m.(jo); Slovak uhoÄ¾ m.(jo); Pl. wÄgiel m.(jo)
> S
> SCr. `Ã¹galj m.(jo), Gsg. `Ã¹glja;
> `Ã¹glje:n m.(o), Gsg. `Ã¹gljena;
> Äak. `Ã¹gÄ¼en (Vrg.) m.(o), Gsg. `Ã¹gÄ¼ena;
> Sln. Ã´,gÉÅ m.(o), Gsg. Ã´,gla;
> vÃ´,gÉÅ m.(o), Gsg. vÃ´,gla
> BSl. *on?glis
> B
> Lith. angls f.(i) 4; Ã¡nglis m.(io) 1; aÃ±glis m.(io) 2;
> Latv. Ã¹ogle f.(e:)
> PIE *h1ongw-l-
> Cogn.
> Skt. Ã¡n.gÄra- (RV+) m. "coal" (with a suffix *-Å:l-)
> Probably a hysterodynamic l-stem.
> See also: *Ã²gÅÑ; *vygÑÅÑ; *vygÑÅa'
>
>
> in Vasmer:
> 'ÑÂ´Ð³Ð¾Ð»Ñ m. G. ÑÂ´Ð³Ð»Ñ "coal",
> Ukrainian vÃºhiÄ¾,
> Belarusian vÅ¯hoÄ¾,
> Old Russian ug(Ñ)lÑ,
> Old Bulgarian o,glÑ `Î¬Î½Î¸ÏÎ±Î¾ (Supr.),
> Bulgarian vÑÂ´gle n. "coal",
> Serbo-Croatian `Ã¹galj, G. `Ã¹glja,
> Slovenian vÃ´.gÉÅ G. vÃ´.gla,
> Czech uhel,
> Slovak uhol,
> Polish wÄgiel,
> Upper Sorbian wuhl, wuhel,
> Lower Sorbian hugel. ||
>
> Cognates::
> Old Prussian anglis,
> Lithuanian anglÃ¬s, Acc. aÃ±glÄ¯, Eastern Lithuanian Ã¡nglis,
> Latvian Ã¹ogle,
> Sanskrit Ã¡ÅgÄras "coal",
> Modern Persian angiÅ¡t id.,
> s.
> ...
> On a poss. relation to Ð¾Ð³Ð¾Â´Ð½Ñ (Solmsen Unters, gr. Lautl. 218),
> see above.'
>
> comparing it with *ogonÑ "fire" (note the a/o/u 'ablaut')
>
> 'Ð¾Ð³Ð¾Â´Ð½Ñ G. Ð¾Ð³Ð½ÑÂ´ m. "fire",
> Ukrainian ohÏÅ G. ohÅÃº,
> Old Russian ognÑ,
> Old Bulgarian ogn~Ñ ÏÏÌÏ (...),
> Bulgarian ÏgÑn,
> Serbo-Croatian Ã²gÐ°nj, Ã²gnjÐ°,
> Slovenian ÏgÉÅ,
> Czech oheÅ G. ohnÄ,
> Slovak oheÅ,
> Polish ogieÅ,
> Upper Sorbian woheÅ,
> Lower Sorbian hogeÅ. ||
>
> Cognates: from
> IE *ognis;
> Lithuanian ugnÃ¬s G. ugniáº½s, Eastern Lithuanian Ã¹gnis,
> Latvian uguns
> (u is reduced grade of o because of Lithuanian Ð°gnÃ¹s "firey"),
> Sanskrit Ð°gnÃs m. "fire",
> Hittite Ð°gniÅ¡,
> Latin ignis
> from *egnis,
> see ...
> the hapax Old Lithuanian ungnis is Schreibfehler for ugnis,
> see ... .
>
> The proposal *n.gnis, still favored today by
> ...
> who connect Ð¾Ð³Ð¾Â´Ð½Ñ with
> Sanskrit Ã¡ÅgÄrÐ°s 'coal',
> ÑÂ´Ð³Ð¾Ð»Ñ (which see),
> is not likely from either Slavic nor from Italic point of view
> (see Walde-Hofmann ], 676),
>
> Unlikely is the attempt to find a relation of *ognÑ in
> Lithuanian Ã¹nkstu, Ã¹nkti "whimper, grovel",
> Latin uncÅ, -Äre "growl (bear)",
> Slavic *jÄÄati (s. ÑÑÐ°Â´ÑÑ),
> pace Lehr-SpÅawiÅski MÃ©langes BeliÃ© 415ff. Bold comparisons with
> Latin egula "type of sulphur" u. a.
> in Loewenthal WS. 11, 54. Not certain is whether *ognÑ is related to
> Serbo-Croatian v`Ã¬ganj "smithy",
> Czech vÃ½heÅ "hearth" '
>
> I wondered if it would be possible for a variant of that root to
> shed the initial vowel altogether, cf *igrÃ¡/grÃ¡ "game"
>
> 'Ð¸Ð³ÑÐ°Â´ "play", Ð¸Ð³ÑÐ°ÑÑ "play", dial. Ð³ÑÐ°ÑÑ id.;
> Ukrainian hra, ihrÃ¡, hrÃ¡ty "play",
> Belarusian hraÄ,
> Old Bulgarian
> igrÑ ÏÎ±Î¹Î³Î½Î¿Î½ (Supr. Euch. Sin.),
> igrati ÏÎ±Î¯Î¶ÎµÎ¹Î½ (Supr.),
> Bulgarian igrÃ¡, igrÃ¡ja "play",
> Serbo-Croatian igra "dance, play", Ã¬grati, `Ã¬gra^m "dance, play",
> Slovenian Ãgra "play", igrÃ¡tÃ¬,
> Old Czech jhra, jhrÃ¡ti, Czech hra, hrÃ¡tÃ¬,
> Slovak ihra, hraÅ¥,
> Polish gra, graÄ,
> Upper Sorbian jhra, hra, hraÄ,
> Lower Sorbian gra, graÅ,
> Polabian jagrÃ©iÄa "play", jeigrÏjÄ "they play",
> see Rozwadowski RS. 7,10. ||
>
> Proto-Slavic *jÑgra, *jÑgrati related to
> Lithuanian aikÅ¡tytis "be boisterous",
> Latvian aÃ®kstÃ®tiÃªs "scream, be noisy",
> Lithuanian Ã¡ikÅ¡tis "passion",
> Sanskrit Ã©:jati, Ã:jati "moves",
> ON eikinn "wild, furious, strong",
> see ...
> The comparison with
> Sanskrit
> yÃ¡jati "sacrifices, honors",
> yÃ¡jiyas, yÃ¡jyas "venerandus"
> Avestan yazait,
> Greek
> Â´Î¬Î¶Î¿Î¼Î±Î¹ "behold, worship",
> Â´Î¬Î³Î¿Ï n. "devout awe"
> (Potebnja bei Preobr. 1,264)
> should be rejected.'
>
> If so, we could compare with
> de Vries
> 'kol 1 n. "charcoal",
> Icelandic Faroese Norwegian Swedish Danish kol. [nope, Danish kul]
> -> Shetl. kol "glowing peat on the hearth";
> > Orkn. kol (Marwick 92). -
> OE col,
> Old Frisian kole,
> MLG kol(e),
> Middle Dutch cole, cool,
> OHG kolo, kol. -
>
> Either to
> Sanskrit jvalati "burn",
> Old Irish gÃºal (< *goulo) "coal" (IEW 399), or to
> kala;
> depending on whether glowing or extinguished coals was assumed
> (W. Schulze KZ 56, 1929, 141).
> - cf. kola.
>
> Also used as anthroponym Kolr,
> cf.
> Frankish Colo;
> further in the compounds
> Kolbeinn, Old Swedish Kolben, Old Danish Kulben
> (> OE Colbein; Old Irish Colbain),
> Kolbjo,rn, Old Swedish Kolbiorn (> OE Colebernus)
> Kolbrandr, Kolgrimr, Kolskeggr;
> also in West Germanic cf.
> OE Colbeorht, Frankish Colobert, OE Colman, Frankish Coloman
> (Naumann 99).
> - 2 n. in the compound
> Ãsarnkol (GrÃmn.) "bellows", orig. "gust of icy wind".
> - cf. kul.'
>
> and guess at their identity with the Quadi/Coldui
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66368
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadi
>
> except for the pesky -d-. Perhaps -ll- -> -ld-?
>
> It's interesting that both Igul- and Kol- are attested as prefixes
> to anthroponyms, as if they indicated the ethnicity of the bearer.
>
>
> Another possibility:
> The traditional etmology of Hungary/Ugri etc is from
> Turkish Onogur "ten arrows"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people#Etymology
>
> However...
>
> Vasmer:
> 'ÑÐ³ÑÐ¸Ð½ "Hungarian", adj. ÑÂ´Ð³Ð¾ÑÑÐºÐ¸Ð¹ "Hungarian",
> only
> Old Russian ugrinÑ, pl. ugre (Nestor-Chron.),
> Ukrainian vÃºhor, Ãºhor,
> Serbian Church Slavonic o,grinÑ, pl. o,gre
> Serbo-Croatian Ã¹gar G. Ã¹gra, also Ã¹grin,
> Slovenian vogÉr, vogrin (MiEW. 223)
> Czech uher, Slovak uhor,
> Polish wÄgier, wÄgrzyn.
> Old Lithuanian unguras "Hungarian",
> has been loaned from a
> Slavic *o,gÑrinÑ
> not later than the 10th century (Buga IORJ. 17, 1, 1ff.). ||
>
> Slav. *o,g(Ñ)rinÑ,
> Medieval Latin Ungari, Ungri
> (Hungari probably has its h from Hunni),
> Medieval Greek Î`ÏÌÎ³Î³ÏÎ¿Î¹, Î`ÏÎ³Î³ÏÎ¹ÎºÏÏ
> (attestations from the 10-16th century in
> Moravcsik Byz.-Turc. 2, 194ff.),
> are based on the Turco-Tatarian ethnonym
> `ÎÎ½ÏÎ³Î¿ÏÏÎ¿Î¹ (Priscus, Agathias),
> Medieval Latin Hunuguri (Jordanes),
> Onoguria terra (Geogr. Ravennas),
> Bulgarian-Turkish on ogur
> Old Turkish on oÎ³uz "zehn OguzstÃ¤mme",
> see ... .'
>
> thus the same alternation with and without n-'infix' and
> w-glide as the list from Derksen
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67683
> and thus suspected of being much older than the arrival of the
> Hungarians in Europe in the 10th century.
>
> Here's something interesting:
> Vasmer:
> 'ÑÂ´Ð³Ð¾ÑÑ II. G. ÑÐ³ÑÑÂ´ "pimple, blackhead",
> Ukrainian vuhÃ³r G. vuhri id.,
> Bulgarian vÑgarÃ©c "maggot, grub" (*o,gorÑcÑ, s. Mladenov 93ff.)
> Serbo-Croatian Ã¹grk id.,
> Slovenian Ã´gre, ogÅc "maggot, botfly, pimple",
> Czech uher, Slovak uhor,
> Polish wÄgr, wÄgry pl.,
> Upper Sorbian wuhra, Lower Sorbian huger. ||
>
> Proto-Slavic *o,grÑ
> Cognates:
> Lithuanian Ã¡nkÅ¡tara f., Eastern Lithuanian inkÅ¡tÃ¬ras "pimple",
> further
> OHG angar "maggot",
> German Engerling "grub"
> see ...
> It has been attempted to show commmon ancestry with
> ÑÂ´Ð³Ð¾ÑÑ I "snake" and
> yÐ¶ "adder"
> see ... .'
>
> Thus *o,gor- is
> 1) "pimple, maggot", 2) "Hungarian"
> in Slavic, as
> *finne in Germanic (German, Swedish) means
> 1) "pimple", 2) "Finn"
> (cf.
> German Mitesser "pimple",
> Lithuanian "co-eater", ie "parasite"
> and
> Danish hudorm "blackhead", Lithuanian "skin worm",
> thus pimples and blacheads were understood as caused by parasites)
> Lower Sorbian even has *o, -> hu/o- in both the words for "coal" and
> "fire", and also in that for "pimple; maggot", which would explain
> the H- in "Hungary"
>
> http://runeberg.org/svetym/0225.html
> '2. finne, blemma,
> B. Olai 1578 (om ansiktsfinnar) = da.,
> frÃ¥n Low German, ty. finne f.;
> besl. med de under fena anfÃ¶rda orden med grundbetyd.:
> spetsig o. d.'
> ...
> fena, Spegel 1712,
> either developed from Old Swedish "fina" or
> relatively recent extension of an
> Old Swedish *fin =
> Older Modern Swedish fe(e)n, fann, Lex. Linc. 1640 etc.
> (Ã¤ven fen plur.) = Swedish dial.;
> from Germanic *finÅ(n)-;
> related to the synonymous
> MLG vinne (German finne),
> OE finn (English fin) with -nn-,
> possibly from an n-stem inflection
> (cf kvinna: Gothis qinÃ¶);
> with m- deriv. in
> Swedish dial. fime, Flemish vimme;
> cf BTW
> Swedish dial. fen n., fena, chaff
> (cf kofen, Swedish dial. kornfena),
> Norwegian finn m., Nardus stricta m. m.;
> from IE root
> (s)pin- in OHG spenala, needle, in ablaut relation to
> Latin spina, thorn;
> Latin pinna, feather,etc, may contain old -nn-,
> but also be derived from a
> *pit(s)nÄ, pidnÄ etc.,
> cf
> Lithuanian spitnÃ , spÃ¤nn-torn;
> from a simpler
> IE root (s)pi, "be pointed", in
> Latin spica, ax,
> cf
> finne, spik, spira etc.'
>
> Most likely Engl. pimple is from the corresponding the
> NWBlock form *pim-, thus *pim-l-
>
> And further:
> *(w)aN- -> German Anger, Danish eng, Basque angio "meadow",
> Danish vang "field"
> *peN- -> Dutch veen, English fen.
>
> Nice.
>
> Alright then. Proposal: The Igylliones were Uralic-speaking
> charcoal-burners, seen by their neighbors as vermin (living on
> meadows?), and they disappeared at some time after Ptolemy mentioned
> them.
>

Aha:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/3/5*.html
'Back from the Ocean, near the Venedicus bay, the Veltae dwell, above whom are the Ossi; then more toward the north the Carbones and toward the east are the Careotae and the Sali; below whom are the Gelones, the Hippopodes and the Melanchlaeni;...'

Carbones? Wonder if they were charcoal-burners?

Torsten