Re: Latin acipe:nser "sturgeon"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Any comment about the etymology of Latin name of the sturgeon, acipe:nser ?
> > > >
> > > > this -pe:nser seems to be < *pentSter- <*pend-ter? Or an ending like anser, passer?
> > >
> > > Modern Venetian <ko'peze> requires a Romance protoform *accu'pe:se, so the correct Latin form is <accupensis> with original accent on the antepenult. This accent shows that the word cannot have been formed as a Latin compound, despite the ingenuity of some publishing etymologists.
>
> First, a correction. Venetian and surrounding dialects have <ku'ba> from Latin <cu:pa>, so the Romance protoform of <ko'peze> requires another geminate, *accu'ppe:se. This additional difficulty was already noted by Schuchardt in his comments on the 'sturgeon'-words (ZRPh 31:650-5, 1907). Schuchardt cites <aquippense> from glosses as a Latin example with -pp-; obviously the onset has been folk-etymologized with <aqua>. Probably the -c- and -p- from the more usual Latin forms have been folk-etymologized with <acus> and <pensus>. To the Romans, after all, this was an exotic fish with an exotic name. That is why it is of vital importance to investigate Romance forms from the area where this fish was part of the culture.
>

****R My understanding is that Venetian stands apart from Gallo-Italian Lombard, Piedmont, Ligurian, etc. So don't make assumptions based on Venetian. These are not dialects, these are languages. 

And were gemmini exotic beings with an exotic name? Italian geminated many C, often w no apparent explanation. This word requires no special explanation for an irregular change. It does make it likely the accent was on -i- at that time, probably after the folk aqui- was changed, w the accent perhaps analogy < * aquífero- or some other word. Instead of -u- being ancient, it likely came from i>u/w_p , or something, since Latin already showed written variation before P, such as -imus / -umus , etc.

> >
> > Then what does the accent in G akkipe:síos show? I'd say nothing, just as in Venetian. Shifts in accent from L > VL, etc., are well known and usually occur after the conditioning env. is changed (here n>0, unstressed e: > e).
>
> Oh, what VINTAGE Whalen.

Perhaps the finest compliment receivable by a historical linguist.

>
First, your Greek accent is wrong, and indeed it shows nothing, since it was given by Greek glossarists with recessive accent. As usual, you provide no evidence that your hand-waving about "well known" phenomena is even applicable here.
>

But akkipe:síos is found:

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getwordcount.pl?lewisandshort.0

with a frequency of just "1", of course, but it doesn't affect my argument that it is meaningless, and the accent could change w no apparent reason.

I don't see how G akkipé:sios would help your argument for an ancient * accúpensis , either, since G could borrow a L word in -is w -is. All ev. shows at best a great deal of variation _within_ L, not from an odd borrowed word.

> > The start of the word shows the same variation seen in accipiter and acupedius, so an origin in 'water' or borrowing seems to gain no weight from it. All the same, even if you acknowledge the 3 are related, it doesn't completely rule out the possibility of borrowing if there was analogy among the three afterwards (as swift an. in the 3 divisions of the world).
>
> I regard <accipiter> as resulting from haplology of *accipitipitros 'falling headlong', which is what these birds do at great speed when attacking prey. Nothing to do with 'swift' or 'take' originally.
>

Then Hom. o:kupterós , K oxúpteros , next to oxúpous , L acupedius 'swift-footed' , would be a very great coincidence.

> > If you have some ev. that it was related to, say:
> >
> > káçyapa- = turtle/tortoise S; kasyapa- Av;
> >
> >
> > in a sim. way to:
> >
> > çaphara-s S; s^ãpalas Lh; kuprî:nos G;
> >
> > carpa L;
> > clupea = ~small fish in rivers L;
> >
> >
> > I'd listen to that w interest.
>
> No such evidence. You will have to make up your own.

Already done.