Naming the Bastarnianbs (Was Re: More on Bastarnian archaeology)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> There is a possibility that *bast- itself is a loan into Germanic from Iranian, in which case there would be no difference between a Germanic and an Iranian explanation.
> �
> ****GK: This is worth pursuing. Let's put our heads together on it.
> �
> Point n.1 The earliest known mention of "Bastarnae" is found in Polybius (H. 25.6.2-4) . This was written in the second half of the 2nd c. BCE, and refers to events of ca. 180-179 BCE
> �
> Point n. 2� The Protogenes Decree (ca. 200 BCE at the latest, but probably a little earlier) doesn't know of "Bastarnians" but only of an alliance of "Sciri" and "Galatae".
> �
> First question: Who would Philip and Perseus (Macedonians) have gotten the expression from? Hypothesis: from the Scythians of Scythia Minor. A contingent left behind by the major Scythians (in 180 BCE they would still be in Central Asia: cf. analogy of the Middle East epos in Herodotus!), ruled by a "king" (we have numismatic evidence), and "frightened" (uneasy and fearful) of incoming "Sciri" and "Galatae" acc. to the Protogenes decree. Another reason for the term: the S+G not only positioned themselves as a power in the sacred Scythian territory the contingent could not wholly defend (again ther Herodotus analogy), but theu came from an area (Poland) which the classical Scythians had frequently raided for slaves in their glory days (cf. the last phase of the Lusatian culture). So.... "Bastarnians" acc. to your view.
> Second question: This term had a neutral (allies) and a "nasty" (slaves) connotation. Perhaps the former was presented to Philip by his interpreters in 180 BCE?
> �
> What do you think?
>

I think Pekkanen already answered the question of the name type status for 'Bastarnae' by pointing out that it occurs double names like 'Scytae Bastarnae', which would then mean "Bastard Scythians".
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66972

Note 'γαλάτας..., βαστέρναι καλου~νται' "Galatians, who are called Basternae". Again, they have a name, and then they are called something (nut not to their face).

The translations in the text sometimes translate 'γαλάται' as "Gauls", I've kept that, you should compare with the original.

As you see in the beginning of that posting I have proposed a Germanic *ga-lin-d- "ge-bund-en, bound, tied" as an etymology for the Galindai, and since the Northern West Germanic unfree underclass is called laeti (Low German, like North Germanic and Modern English has no equivalent of ga- in such past participles), I propose that the Galatians are from an n-less *ga-lae-t-, another descendant of the Proto-Germanic(?) word from which also Galindai stems.

Thus, the Sciri and Galatians of the Protogenes decree is actually that eternal duality Sciri and Bastarnae.

And more generally, this means that whenever we meet the derogatory exonym 'Bastarnae' in the ancient sources, we can never be sure that it is not referring to a people we know from elsewhere, under an endonym, their 'real' name. And, mutatis mutandis, similarly for 'Sciri' and its relatives.


Torsten