From: gknysh
Message: 67465
Date: 2011-05-03
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
Correcting some typos. And adding a final paragraph as apologetic compensation (:=)))
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> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
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> There is a possibility that *bast- itself is a loan into Germanic from Iranian, in which case there would be no difference between a Germanic and an Iranian explanation.
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> ****GK: This is worth pursuing. Let's put our heads together on it.
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> Point n.1 The earliest known mention of "Bastarnae" is found in Polybius (H. 25.6.2-4) . This was written in the second half of the 2nd c. BCE, and refers to events of ca. 180-179 BCE
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> Point n. 2� The Protogenes Decree (ca. 200 BCE at the latest, but probably a little earlier) doesn't know of "Bastarnians" but only of an alliance of "Sciri" and "Galatae".
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> First question: Who would Philip and Perseus (Macedonians) have gotten the expression from? Hypothesis: from the Scythians of Scythia Minor. A contingent left behind by the major Scythians (in 180 BCE they would still be in Central Asia: cf. analogy of the Middle East epos in Herodotus!), ruled by a "king" (we have numismatic evidence), and "frightened" (uneasy and fearful) of incoming "Sciri" and "Galatae" acc. to the Protogenes decree. Another reason for the term: the S+G not only positioned themselves as a power in the sacred Scythian territory the contingent could not wholly defend (again the Herodotus analogy), but they came from an area (Poland) which the classical Scythians had frequently raided for slaves in their glory days (cf. the last phase of the Lusatian culture). So.... "Bastarnians" acc. to your view.
> Second question: This term had a neutral (allies) and a "nasty" (slaves) connotation. Perhaps the former was presented to Philip by his interpreters in 180 BCE?
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> What do you think?
P.S. The evidence for the withdrawal of the Scythians to Central Asia for the period ca. 300 BCE to ca. 175 BCE is to be found principally in Pliny + archaeology: the latter evidence indicates that Scythian burials in Ukraine cease almost completely ca. 300 BCE (except for oddities like Ruzanivka), indicating a wholesale population departure. Interestingly, there is no "Sarmatian" presence yet (which puts a big question mark on Diodorus Siculus' theory). Also: the vacated territory (steppe and forest steppe) ia not allowed for settlement. There is evidence of mass destruction ca. 270 BCE of Olbian and other colonizing attempts into old Scythian territories. These are, so to speak, "vacant reserves". The Scythian contingent left behind (and located in Scythia Minor) consisted of "agricultural Scythians" (Aroteres in Pliny). Their territory in the forest steppe zone west of the Dnipro is also largely vacated at that time. As for the Royal Scythians (Diodorus' Pali) they, together with the Auchata and others destroy their cousins on the Iaxartes (cf. Herodotus' mention of these as "withdrawn Royals"), the Napi. This information Pliny gets from Demodamas, a historian from the time of the Seleucids, who also noted the presence ca. 290 of Auchatae and Cotieri (cf. the Herodotan tribes, scions of the 2nd and 3rd "sons" of Targitai) north of the Iaxartes. The editor of Pliny calls them "Satarchae". They were the mainstay of Skilur's rebuilt Scythian realm in 2nd c. BCE Ukraine (with capitals at Neapolis and (possibly) Metropolis near Olbia).-- Just additional factual baggage.
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