From: Torsten
Message: 67406
Date: 2011-04-27
>Yes, you do, thoise colonists were under military protection.
> >Okay, so you prefer the version in which
> >Jews lived in Eastern Europe, having adopted Slavic as their
> >language. Suddenly Germans arrived from Germany on a rampage,
> >subjugating the natives.
>
> Nope.
> Those Germans were mere colonists (Bauern und Handwerker).Yes, that's your scenario.
> On many occasions invited by east-european kings. And there were
> whole lotta Germans always emigrating (one of the reasons was
> the German habit/law pertaining to the inheritance of a farm:
> one of several brethren had the right to inherit, the rest had
> the right to buzz off). Of German domination in some areas, one
> can talk only in the case of territories conquered/owned by the
> Teutonic Order and in such regions where Germans were granted
> some status of regional administrative autonomy (under the
> aegis of the king of that country).
> >The Jews became so infatuated with them that they all decided toYes, that is your scenario.
> >communicate in a German dialect
>
> In some regions of E-Eur, esp. Poland-Lithuania merchant & al.
> traders of Jewish faith got in some kind of relationship with
> the newcomers (incl. Jews from German lands). Look yourself for
> details. That was the epoch where an E-Eur J. population got in
> touch with the Mittelhochdeutsch and with the Frühneuhochdeutsch.
> (Jiddisch is a too recent dialect - it's obvious to any non-
> linguist who's in command of South-German - in contrast with
> other German dialects that started to be spoken in E-Eur in the
> 12th/13th c., such as those in Hungary: in what's today Slovakia
> and Romania's central region Transylvania, where local dialects
> are continuators of variants of the 12th/13th c. Mosel-Fränkisch
> and still are (after 800 years) pretty close to Kölsch, Letze-
> buergesch (of Luxembourg) & the like and share various features,
> incl. pre-last sound shift elements - in contrast with Yiddish,
> which is rather Bavarian and Franconian-"oriented"). You might
> also look into the history of such places of medieval Jewry as
> ... Prague (& al. similar ones).
> >even if they were hundreds of miles away from any German,But you are claiming that they switched away from Slavic to a German dialect even if they were hundreds of miles away from where such a dialect would be useful.
> >thus suddenly rendering communication impossible with
> >their neighbors, the Slavs.
>
> Not at all: AFAIK, Jews were always in command of the language
> of the region where they lived. And the Yiddish "losh'n" itself
> illustrates this by its Slavic vocabulary (incl. such lexems as
> nebbich and shmok).
> >That's a superseded scenario, as the sources you quoted stated,Wechsler does that because he has to, he is not aware of those Germanic dialects which were spoken in the relevant time and area.
> >whereas you maintained the opposite. Nor does Wexler agree.
>
> Anyone is entitled to have an opinion. (If I ain't wrong, Wechsler
> goes as far as saying Yiddish were actually a slavic idiom in a
> German overcoat. That's worth investigating, Briederchen, nee? :))
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Vulgar_LatinSo Proto-Romanian might have started here.
> >'To some scholars, this suggests that the form of Vulgar Latin
> >that evolved into the Romance languages was around during the
> >time of the Roman Empire
>
> Of course it was. There is enough text material from the last few
> centuries before Odowakar's chasing Romulus Augustulus. Texts that
> show new diverging language aspects; and there are grafittos. (Un-
> fortunately, I don't have any list with the adequate bibliography.)
> St. Jerome's (Hieronymus's) Bible translation (around AD 400) is
> also a kind of Vulgata text: http://www.speedbible.com/vulgate/
> > > >>Ashkenazi Jews's origins are Scythian, Balto-Slavic,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Y-DNA_of_Ashkenazi_Jews
> > > >>Turkic (Tatar) and Iranian.
> > > >
> > > >Oh, you are one of those who believe that ...
>
> > > I don't believe, I learn and take into consideration
> > > presentations and hypotheses that tend to be plausible (whose
> > > "markers" and proofs are OK, not mere ... tales).
> > Interesting. Let's look at that.
> > > >
> > > >Well, genetics say different:
>Your claim was:
> > > Rad carefully the whole stuff there and have an attentive look
> > > at the diagrams and tables. You'll see even there, in the
> > > wikipedia articles (look up those about the R1a, R1b and J1
> > > haploids), that the "typical (?)" Middle East haploids values
> > > show a pretty scarce frequency in the Ashkenasic population,
> > > whereas the common heritage of the east-European PIE peoples
> > > is almost as much there as in any other neighboring non-Jewish
> > > population. And you'll also see that the so-called Y chromosome
> > > of the Moses-Aaron brethren is highly there in the Kurdish
> > > and adjacent populations in and around Eastern Anatolia
> > > (Kurdistan).
> >I think you got that wrong. R1a, R1b and J1 are the *non*-Jewish
> >haplotypes.
>
> They say:
>
> <<Haplogroup J2 is found in the highest concentrations in the the
> Caucasus and the Fertile Crescent and is found throughout the
> Mediterranean (including the Italian, Anatolian and Iberian
> peninsulas and North Africa)[20].>>
>
> It is reasonable to assume that Moses, Akharon, David, Solomon
> also belonged to a populace where the J2 incidence was pretty
> high. But when you see that modern so-called Ashkenazic Jewry
> has less of it, while R1(a+b) much higher and I tending to nil,
> then this can be seen as fitting the linguistic and historic
> finds (that lead to the "Ashkunaz" = Saka = Scythian ancestry,
> i.e. to the Ukrainian-Russian plains, to the Caspian, Aral,
> Baikal areas, to the Ural region etc). (BTW, it seems that
> Abraham and his crowd belonged to some Habiru population with
> roots in the same... Kurdistan + Armenia area where Moses's
> and his brother's Y chromosme seems to be frequent. :))
>
> >Those studies show that the admixture of surrounding European
> >peoples is about 10-20%, the rest being eastern Mediterranean,
> >thus exactly the opposite of what you claim.
>
> Look at the percentage tables yourself.