Re: Saupe < župan (Re: Schöffe I)

From: t0lgsoo1
Message: 67323
Date: 2011-04-06

>Yes, but I was talking about PIE.

Some ocurrences typical of certain epochs might repeat in other
epochs; or in other geographic/dialectal areas.

>All examples from Saxony, ie. old Czech lands.

Which shows the primeval area of the "impact". Followed by Austria.

>Here's another, I think
>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zschopau
>1286 Schapa
>or?
>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zschopau_(Fluss)

Yes. BTW, sometimes it is difficult to make the difference: there
are other bunches of saup-, sup-, soppe- etc. that are not related
with Zhupan & Schoppe/Schöppe/Schöffe, but with... Sumpf (marshlands),
so that I expect many such place names, river names, person names
in the middle, south and NW Germany to be interpreted always as
such, so that one doesn't know how far to the West was (or has been)
the actual spreading of the German adaptation for the Slavic word
zhupan.

>Interesting that Meyer needs to split the word into two in order
>to maintain its Slavic provenance and also account for its
>presence in areas with no known Slavic settlement.

Yes, because earlier one thought it must have been a compositum:
s<vowel>- + pan "lord", and not a derivate of the geographic,
administrative and social term zhupa (kind of "county", or
earlier a certain "community").

>Here you are assuming a Slavic provenance of 'župan', but it
>might be a loan there too.

Slavic provenance only in the sense that "German might have
borrowed it from a western Slavic idiom". Whether župa is an
old Slavic creation or a loanie itself, I don't know; I'd ask
Slavists.

>http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/18991

Yes, of course: if the Protobulgarian (or Bulgar) word "zoapan"
(spelled this way in Greek letters in the famous text with
"boila butaul"; and whose pronunciation is unknown) is really
the model/origin for župa/n & Su:pe/Saupe, Schöppe, Schöffe,
then the oldest origin might have been Scythian and/or Tokharian,
since east-Caucasian zhoopan and Sogdian chupan are attested.
So that one can also assume that Hunnic-Turkic chaban/choban
initially had the meaning of this *rank*, and that the meaning
"shepherd" was a secondary one (initially).

(It also can be that pan in chupan/zhoopan is not the same
as ban. What do experts in Old and Middle Iranian languages
say about these termes: ban and chaban/zhoopan?)


> No, what we have attested is that Saupe (<- *zūpa?) is a loan from Slavic. Its provenance in Slavic is unknown.

Neither did I mean that zhupa is a Slavic creation; I only meant
"it entered German dialects from Slavic dialects". So, as Slavic
as, say, Pferd and Mauer are German (actually latin: paraveredus,
murus).

>>Falsche Verdächtigung ist auch eine Strafe nach'm Strafgesetzbuch. >>:)

Sheesh, I forgot "wert" (or better: auch eine Straftat).

>>>Through 'Jespan'?
>>
>>Is Jespan the Low German variant of Gespan?
>
>It was a question. I have no attestation of it.

Jespan is unknown to me. But I'd expect Germans north of Saxony,
Luzatia, Silezia (e.g. in Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Pommern)
to pronounce Gespan Jespan, due to their Low German subdialects.
But I can't tell 'janz jewiss', only 'jut möchlich'.

>I was hypothesizing that Gespan was a Hochdeutsch
>hyper-correction (j- -> g-) of a hypothetical jespan <- ispan,
>cf Wexler, p. 44

Hm, I see. Unfortunately, I don't know the exact area for such
hypercorrect things (j > g); I only know of one region, namely
northern Rhineland and south-western Westphalia. There this kind
of hypercorrections are highly typical (even prominent people,
whom one sees almost on TV daily can't control this mistake,
e.g. Franz Müntefering; e.g. "getz" = "jetzt").

But theoretically, it could be in the relevant German-Slavic
"interface": Berlin, Brandenburg, Vorpommern. (Unfortunately
for the hypothesis, Saxony, Bohemia, Silezia don't fit, since
German dialects there don't have the feature [g] > [j] in order
to for people to be tempted to a hypercorrect revert [j] > [g].)

I guess Wexler exaggerates a lot. Does he really deem Yiddish a
Slavic language with German vocabulary?

>Both words undeniably have original j-; the g- must have come
>about by substitin, eg by hypercorrection.

These substitutions or ... difficulties [j]<>[g] seem to me as
being typical of Low Germand and of Germanic idioms to the
north (partially English too: yellow < gel-/gal-; satem zel-),
and I do'nt know to what extent Slavic, and ... Greek. AFAIK,
Yiddish (as any South-German dialect) doesn't have this
dichotomy.

>>language was Slavic. (And both had/have Scythian/Iranian
>>substrates or adstrates.

That might have left zhupan (zhoopan) and Schöffe. :)


> Because that's where 'feme' comes from
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67254

"Belege zu Femegerichten finden sich vor allem im späten
Mittelalter (14. und 15. Jahrhundert) im niederdeutschen Sprachgebiet. Einzelne weitere Belege gibt es aus den
angrenzenden Jahrhunderten (13. und 16. Jahrhundert),
vereinzelt bis 18. Jahrhundert, außerdem aus einigen
mitteldeutschen Gebieten wie der Oberlausitz und Schlesien."

So, the spreading of the Femegericht happened at the same time
in east German provinces as well, exactly where "Suppan/Saupe"
was alive and kickin'. It didn't stay put and isolated in the
Rhein-Ruhr area expecting the... Altaic Arian chupan to be
conveyed by the former underlings of the Avars, i.e. the Slavic
population, as zhoopan.

>But Schöffe is a legal institution. You don't introduce new legal >concepts unless you have to.

Or if the ... tongue of the relevant population prefers one
term or another; some times out of a whim, some times because
the "muscle" of one populace is stronger than the one of an
other part of the population; sometimes because of a... fade,
because it's "hip, hype & en vogue" etc. But one has to take
into consideration what Schöppe/Saupe were in the oldest
medieval times: as we are shown, they were rather petty
assistants to the main representative (in villages) of some
gentry aristocrat or a higher nobleman. And it seems that
the judicative attributions/functions were a bit later on,
esp. in the German-speaking regions, whereas in Slavic-speaking
regions zhupan seems to have gotten high positions within
aristocracy. Compared to the Slavic world, in Germany Schuppan
> Schöffe "shrinked" to a mere "justice of peace" and then an
assistant helping the real judge.

>Why introduce a fly-by-night kangaroo court with terminology
>used on the Slavic mark into Westphalia of all places?

Only Schöffe, not all terminology. By the same token, why
introduce such words as Quark, Grenze, Peitsche, Petschaft,
Schabracke, Schmetten, Powidel, Bulwe?

>Yes, that is interesting. The colonizing Germans force the
>former lords of the land into submission and collaboration.

Not only colonizing, but also... Germanisation of big chunks
of Slavic-speaking populations, incl. aristocracy (which even
today, here and there, has Slavic onomastics, -owski, -itzki,
and the like, as well as Slavic 1st names). As for second
names of the rest of the population esp. in all eastern
German provinces they comprise whole lotta Slavic names that
are more or less Germanised. One of the most famous is...
Porsche (along with Borsch(k)e, Borschel < Borislav). And
Boris (if I haven't got it wrong) is an Asian bars/pars
"leo_pard_".

George