Re: Schöffe I

From: t0lgsoo1
Message: 67306
Date: 2011-04-03

>Yes, this is Grimm's opinion.

[De Briada Grimm meng vielleicht etwas mehra aus dem Daitschn
ausgeschöpft ham... :)]

>thus 'Recht schöpfen' "scoop the law", which does not make a
>lot of sense, but the Germans have tried to do it anyway.

Why shouldn't it make a lot of sense? After all, the image/idea
is "to take something/a part from a larger quantity and to
examine it in order to get a conclusion". It doesn't matter
whether you "separate" or "scratch out" or "scoop" or "excavate"
or <etc>, i.e. whether you use the appropriate tool/vessel for
each of such "exploratory"+"extractive" actions.

In German, iurisprudentia is also called _Rechtsfindung_, i.e.
"*finding* of justice"; once, the judge and the Schöffen have
found it, the verdict is issued: "Recht wird gesprochen"
(Rechtsprechung is also iurisprudentia).

Other peoples/languages have resorted to other images/metaphors
in order to express this pursuit of "finding/fathoming"; Germans
have made use of schöpfen (in the "scooping" sense). What's
wrong with it? OTOH, where is (in German and Uralic idioms)
the nexus as far as the blacksmith's work is concerned? Indeed,
he also makes all kind of things out of a piece of metal, as
if those things would have been "hidden" therein and he "cuts"
them out. On top of that, a smith (or a sculptor) is also a
Schöpfer & Schaffer/Schaffender in the sense of "creator",
indeed. But what kind of "creator" might be a judge? S/he only
applies laws somebody else has invented/voted&adopted. Let
alone the Schöffe, who, without a judge to lead the procedure,
can't do anything but twiddle thumbs.

>Grimm's opinion.

Might be warranted.

>>(2) the German words that led to the derivate Schöffe ("member of
>>the jury")
>Not the original sense.

The original senses might have been - either Schöpfer in the
sense of "someone who takes a quantity of liquid or another
matter from A to put/pour/discard it in B"; or in the sense of
"creator, wright (who cuts out, carves, sculpts, models etc.)".

So what? In the frame of a jury, in a court, a Schöffe is no
"creator", and, as someone who "takes x from A to B" s/he
isn't the main agent, but only sort of an assistant.

>>already had in earlier periods the additional meaning...
>>... "ordnen" and "anordnen"!
>Which is what a judge does, not a juror.

Of course. But pay heed to "ordnen": first "ordnen," (which
means "einordnen", mentally and judicially) and only after that
"anordnen". ("Anordnen" without judgment/thinking <- einordnen
isn't possible.)

>>An order issued by the court also
>>means "Recht verschaffen, Recht sprechen" (i.e. Jurisprudenz).
>If that had been the derivation, he would have been called
>something like *Rechtsschöffe. He wasn't, Grimm does not know
>such a word.

I only mentioned the further derivations and usage to show that
the word (ver)schaffen (from the same etymologic family) is also
used in the legal and procedural context - here, in the sense of
"procure + establish/fix" a certain order (according to laws).
I.e., the initial meaning "create" changed to "procure, obtain,
set up".

E.g. in everyday's idiomatic usage: "Indem er auf diese Weise
Recht verschafft, erschafft er eine neue Situation: Durch diesen
Präzedenzfall können nunmehr die Freischaffenden von dieser
Steuer befreit werden. Das schafft der Richter, ohne Gesetzes-
schöpfer zu sein. Er schöpft aber aus dem Vollen. Die Anwälte
der Gegenseite behaupten trotzdem, dass die Rechtsmittel noch
nicht ausgeschöpft seien. Die Kläger wollten sich nicht äußern,
sie sagten lediglich, sie gingen nach Hause, sie seien schon

If all the relevant words once (1,500-2,000 years ago) had
meanings such as "scab, carve, scoop", in the German language
of more recent times only the main ideas "to scoop" and "to
create" have been preserved (to a certain extent).

>>>ung. szép 'schön, (dial.) kellemes, kedvezö (SzamSz.), jó;
>>>angenehm, günstig gut, (dial.) derék, nagy, hatalmas;
>>>stattlich, groß, mächtig' (SzamSz., SzegSz.).
>>["from "jó, angenehm to mächtig", the equivalents are
>>exaggerations: [...]
>The original sense is "schön", so irrelevant.

Without this explanation you wouldn't know which parts of the
entry are relevant. I added the explanation to help you,
so that you'll be spared possible speculations concerning
kellemes (pleasant), jó (good/well), angenehm, günstig gut,
nagy+hatalmas (big/large, huge), stattlich, groß, mächtig.
Szép simply means "beautiful; pretty; handsome; nice", i.e.
simply means "schön"; "beau, belle".

>[Rédei9 is not implying derivational relationship with Finno-Ugric
>*śeppä "geschickt" for any of the words he uses in the examples.

Semantically, he does. Especially in the case of szép (and
other [Sep-] Uralic words that also mean "beautiful, pretty").

>>>Mansi (Ahlqv.) mašter "master" ~ "gewandt",
>>>Khanty (547) DN máśtar "master" ~ "skilled in something"
>>These are connected with Meister, master, magister; I doubt that
>>they are old Uralic words. Hungarian also has similar words:
>>mester ['maeStaer] "Meister" & mesteséges "masterful, skilful;
>>meisterhaft; elaborate".
>Irrelevant. See above.

It is relevant, since your initial idea revolves around the
meanings "wright, smith = creator", while you reject, for German,
the other idea "Wasser schöpfen". So, of course you also cited
the Khanty and Mansi words mashter and mashtar (since any creator
is a... meshter/Meister/magister).

>>>The derivation of the Hungarian word from
>>>Chuvash šep "beautiful" (Róna-Tas: NytudÉrt. 58 : 174)
>>>is improbable, since the Chuvash word is found only in a
>>>small area.
> [...]
>I agree with you here. It seems like Rédei is trying to make his
>Finno-Ugric *śeppä "geschickt" an exclusively FU word; I think
>it is a Wanderwort for someone who takes apart and cleans, ie.
>a woodsman, 'Förster'

Seemingly, nobody knows whether Hungarian szép, Chavash shep
& al. Uralic equivalents are remnants of *śeppä or whether they
are derivates of a Wanderwort "Förster". (It'd be a little weird
for such an important word as szép to have had an initial meaning
woodsman, though. And not merely because Hungarian has for "tree,
wood" and "forest" such different words: fa & erdö.)

>>The same Róna-Tas points out that the names of at least two modern
>>Chuvash populations, Yurmatu and Yanay (sp?), are very close to


>>the Hungarian (Kürt)gyarmat and Jenö tribes, mentioned by emperor
>>Constantine Porphyrogenitus ("De administrando imperii") as
>>Kourtougermatos and Genach.

Kourtougermáton, Genách.


I must have seen a citation by or in connection with prof. Róna
somewhere, but the mentioning of Yurmatu vs Kürtgyarmat and Yeney
vs Jenö must have been done by the Hungarian linguist (turcologue)
Julius Németh (Gyula Németh) in a book (in 1930; reprinted in 1991)
referring to the formation of the Hungarian people that settled
Pannonia (10th c.) Besides, there is the account of Julianus, a
Dominican friar, who traveled to "Magna Bulgaria" and "Magna
Hungaria" in the Volga region in 1235; he was told in Bullar where
to find the Volga Hungarians, he found them in Chuvashia, and,
according to him, his Hungarian and the Hungarian idiom spoken by
the population there were mutually intelligible (i.e. after a
3-4 century separation). This is also mentioned in this work: Klima,
László, "The Linguistic Affinity of the Volgaic Finno-Ugrians
and Their Ethnogenesis." Studia Historica Fenno-ugrica I. Oulu,
1996 (pp. 21â€"33).