Re: Tudrus

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:
>
> At 4:42:12 PM on Saturday, January 8, 2011, Torsten wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> > <bm.brian@> wrote:
>
> >> At 4:43:38 AM on Saturday, January 8, 2011, Torsten wrote:
>
> >>> Da. dial. (Sønderjysk, Schleswig) stå/stær, gå/gær
> >>> Dutch staan/staat, gaan/gaat
> >>> German stehen/steht, gehen/geht
> >>> "stand/stands", "go/goes"
>
> >>> which make me suspect those two verbs originally umlauted
> >>> in the 2/3 sg.pres.
>
> >> They probably did. Apparently they're contracted presents
> >> in *-ji- ~ *-ja- (from *-ye- ~ *-yo-), with PGmc. outcomes
> >> *stai- ~ *sta- and *gai- ~ *ga-. The first stem alternant
> >> ought to appear in the 2/3 sg. pres. (e.g., *staisi,
> >> *staiþi), the second in the 1/3 pl. (e.g., *stamaz,
> >> *stanþi). The 2 pl. should have been *staiþ, the inf.
> >> *stanã, and the 1 sg. *st? (*sto::).
>
> >> OSax. has very few attestations of either verb, but those
> >> few seem to show remnants of this reconstruction: 2 sg.
> >> <stes>; 3 sg. <ged>, <sted>, <steid>; 3 pl. <stad>; inf.
> >> <gan>, <stan>. (That's the entire list of attested forms.)
>
> > LG steit, geit is what I heard.
>
> It's a safe bet that you didn't hear any Old Saxon, though!

Saw, actually, as 'steiht' and 'geiht' in 'Niederdeutsch an Volkhochschulen'.

> > More likely seems to me an origin in 'long-vowel verbs',
> > from a kind of impersonal '4sg' in -i alone, cf Greek 3sg
> > pherei, cf Dutch draai-, gooi-, Grm dreh-, NW dial gouw-
> > "turn", "throw", later 'normalized' with a 3sg -t suffix:
> > draait, gooit.
>
> drehen < drÄ�an < *þrÄ"anã; originally Class VII, *þrÄ"anã,
> *þeþrÅ�, *þeþrÅ�un, *þrÄ"anaz. In German, unlike English, it
> was transferred to the weak verbs, though a strong ppart. is
> found as late as MHG.

Still, the Dutch (and LG, 'dreiht' ibd.) -i needs an explanation.
I suppose I could match it with the "throng" verb, as I did with *sta:-/stand- and *ga:-/gang-. Odd semantics, BTW, between Dutch draaien and Enl. throw. Maritime term for steering?

****R Sounds like English drayage --probably related to draft

> > I'd venture the same origin for Eng. stay.
>
> It's a borrowing from French.

Proposed to be. Dutch staan, Da./Sw. stå are most likely related. What's the official story of sway/zwaaien? Zwaaien has navigation origins too.

Torsten