Re: Tudrus

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...>
wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> <bm.brian@> wrote:

>> At 7:54:08 PM on Saturday, January 1, 2011, Rick
>> McCallister wrote:

>>> From: Torsten <tgpedersen@>

[...]

>>>> There is a suffix *-ri:k in German Enterich, Da.
>>>> andrik, Engl. drake (*and- "duck")

>> No suffix there: the vowel isn't long, and the second
>> element is probably a WGmc. *drako or the like, perhaps
>> originally an independent word for 'male duck'.

> Obviously there is a suffix:
> Da. and "duck", andrik "drake"
> Grm. Ente "duck", Enterich "drake"
> Grm. Taube "pigeon", Täuberich "male pigeon"
> http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=andrik&search=S%C3%B8g
> http://runeberg.org/svetym/0099.html

There is a suffix, derived from the Gmc. anthroponymic
deuterotheme, but it doesn't appear in the 'male duck' word.
It's not even clear to what extent it originally appeared in
<Täuberich>, which is an extension of earlier <tauber>, or
in <Gänserich>, which is an extension of earlier <ganser>
first attested in the 16th century.

> (the form anddrake etc shows your *drako can't have
> originally meant "drake", if it did, the first element
> could not have served a purpose of specifying further the
> -drake part and thus have been superfluous, perhaps that's
> Suolahti's idea too; we should probably proceed from
> andrake)

On the contrary, the first part could very well have been
added to differentiate a 'male duck' word from the 'dragon'
word.

> cf. also fenrik (appr. staff sergeant)
> http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=f%C3%A6ndrik&search=S%C3%B8g

Na, und? It's a borrowing of German <Fähnrich>, which is a
NHG extension of MHG <venre>, OHG <faneri>, under the
influence of masculine names originally in *-ri:kaz.
In short, another late-comer, as most of these words are
(e.g., <Knöterich>, late 15th century). Many of them were
pejorative, exhibiting an interesting parallel with French
pejoratives in <-ard>, from the Gmc. deuterotheme <-hard>.

There are a few apparent OHG examples of the suffix derived
from the onomastic theme, mostly plant names. <Hederīh>
'hedge mustard' is probably from Latin <hederaceous> under
the influence of personal names in <-rīh>; <wegarīh>
'plantain' may actually contain the 'king' word. Then
there's <wuotrih> 'tyrant', but since there's also
<wuotrīhhī> 'tyranny', we may have the 'king' word (or
influence from it) here as well.

> and the vowel of the contemporaneous version of the
> anthroponymic suffix / second element is also short; do
> you know contemporaneous attestations of the two suffixes
> where they differ in vowel length?

The only word to which my comment applied is <Enterich>, for
which it's clear that the OHG forms do not have /ī/ (or any
long vowel). It's also clear that the OHG masculine names
in <-rīh> had long vowels.

[...]

>>>> possibly Gothic Ermanaric(?)

>> That's a straightforward dithematic name in <-ri:k>.

> But the first theme is identical to that of Arminius.

Quite possibly; so what? It's not as if simplex names were
exactly thin on the ground.

[...]

>> Gothic *Þiudareiks (LLat. <Theodoricus>) is pretty
>> clearly from *Þiuðo:-ri:kaz and unrelated to the Gk.
>> name.

> Unless -ri:k- is a suffix.

In a masculine name? One can imagine all sorts of fanciful
things when one is unconstrained by the evidence.

Brian