--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@> wrote:
> >
> > At 8:53:34 PM on Monday, December 27, 2010, stlatos wrote:
> >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> > > <bm.brian@> wrote:
> >
> > >> At 2:41:57 PM on Monday, December 27, 2010, stlatos
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >>> This can't fit w Oscan anafrÃss kerrÃiúÃs & maatúÃs
> > >>> kerrÃiúÃs (both aprx. 'grain spirits' (possibly one for
> > >>> dead ancestors, another for ~ gods/fairies, who knows?))
> > >>> in which the -n- is clearly present and not
> > >>> nasalization. The standard model might have ansuro- >
> > >>> ansaro- > anasro- > anafro-, though it's not important
> > >>> for this discussion.
> >
> > >> This appears to be both irrelevant and somewhat off the
> > >> mark. So far as I know, <anafrÃss> is generally taken to
> > >> be cognate with Latin <imbribus>, dative plural of
> > >> <imber> 'rain(storm)', from *n.bH-ró-. Larissa Bonfante
> > >> translates <anafrÃss kerrÃiúis statif> as 'imbribus
> > >> Cerealibus statio' and 'la estación para las lluvias de
> > >> Ceres'.
> >
> > > It has been "generally" taken as such, for no good reason.
> >
> > I'm afraid that I feel no obligation to take this very
> > seriously: you've long since convinced me that your
> > judgement of 'good reason' in such matters is of very
> > limited value.
>
>
> Looking at what are "generally" taken as cognates:
> L imber ;
> G ómbros 'rain(storm)' ;
> S abhrá- 'cloud' ;
> Gaul Ambris '(name of river)' ;
> I see no -a- or any -V- between the nasal and bH or any ev. that the
> nasal is -n- not -m- (the G might even be ev. for -m- (since m, > õ
> ( > ã in many), the exact details of C, > [] in G aren't fully
> understood, and there's some ev. for gemination in some env. (maybe
> énnea)); but not clear enough).
*aN-r- would solve that problem.
> Why would PIE -a- disappear everywhere but Italic, and in only one
> part of it (or -x- fail to voc., or whatever you might think).
Or epenthesis inject a vowel; *aNs-ur- -> *aNas-r-
...
>
> As I said, that connection was made for no good reason. There is
> absolutely no reason to think anafr()- : imbr()-, yet that is the
> ONLY reason "<anafrÃss> is generally taken to be cognate with Latin
> <imbribus>": a slight resemblance that can't be explained by any
> normal sound changes with absolutely no contextual ev. for the
> meaning 'rain' or anything similar. This might as well be a
> discussion about a folk etymology I'm being expected to prove didn't
> really occur.
>
>
> > >>> The sun is not the Zodiac.
> >
> > >> In fairness to Torsten, he neither said nor implied that
> > >> it was, or even that it was a part of the Zodiac.
> >
> > > He said:
> >
> > >>>> which woulf mesh nicely with the supreme god being
> > >>>> master of the Zodiac, ie. the sun.
> >
> > > and that seems to do more than imply the sun is the
> > > Zodiac.
> >
> > Hardly. He's obviously identifying the sun as 'master of
> > the Zodiac'.
>
>
> He's said a lot of odd things, such as e:s- : aNs- : aUs-, but I
> should know he "obviously" wouldn't say Zodiac : sun?
Yes, because that would be a stupid thing to say.
> Whatever he meant, it's unlikely there was a Zodiac in the PIE
> framework
There seems to have been a knowledge of the Zodiac in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis
(though since he did say every word with e:s- / aNs- / aUs- might be non-IE, I guess my objection wouldn't stand w him anyway).
That's right.
> If that's what he meant, I disagree w the Zodiac having any
> connection to those words, or the unity of their roots.
The connection was to the sun, the master of the Zodiac.
As for the sign of Taurus, there's the suspicious similarity of IE Semitic and Etruscan words for "bull"
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/29001
The opposite sign in the zodiac, Scorpio, is aqrabu 'in the astronomical tablets (of the 1st and 2nd cent. BCE) translated by Epping and Strassmaier' (Emmeline Plunket)
cf the distribution for similar words for 'crab' etc in
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/krn.html
cf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_zodiac
> Still, I suppose I should admire his grasp of PIE mythology (The sun
> is the supreme god.),
Well, thank you. Does that include my supposed belief that the sun is identical to the Zodiac?
> however partial, for what it's worth among the rest of his ideas.
Thank ms. Plunket for that. But after some googling I got a suspicion that the idea that the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkaba
of Ezekiel's vision and consequently the Christian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetramorph
were somehow connected to events around 2200 BCE was circulating in Masonic societies at the time. Whether she was the originator of those ideas or the knowledge passed in the opposite direction is difficult to tell.
http://www.llewellyn.com/journal/article/472
'One might also consider whether, at the time of the Exodus, the Vernal Equinox might not have been in Taurus. That would require a date previous to something like 2200 B.C., which is unlikely, but the nomadic Jews had no astrology of their own and may have borrowed what they knew from an ancient Chaldean culture in the Taurean Age. How else can one explain the prominence throughout scripture of the fixed signs of the zodiac? The four tetramorphs play a central role in the vision of Ezekiel, and they are said to correspond to the four evangelists of the New Testament. They are used to this day in Golden Dawn ceremony and in rituals based on those of the Golden Dawn. Aside from the fact that three of the four constellations in question are rather conspicuous (Taurus, Leo, and Scorpio), there is really no way to account for this emphasis except to assume that it came from a period when these four constellations marked the equinoxes and solstices...'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_sign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn
http://www.osogd.org/library/biscuits/history.html
But now we are entering Dan Brown territory.
As a general remark, I don't think one can overestimate the effect the discovery of the course of the sun through the Zodiac, on its own and without divine intervention (other than what could be thought up as an ultimate primus movens of these movements), and the potential threat it would be to the power of a priestly class; an intellectual conflict that stretches all the way to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei
cf Jordanes Getica
68-71
'... the Goths [Getae/Dacians] continued in their kingdom unharmed.
Their safety, their advantage, their one hope lay in this, that whatever their counselor Decaeneus advised should by all means be done; and they judged it expedient that they should put it into effect.
And when he saw that their minds were obedient to him in all things and that they had natural ability, he taught them almost the whole of philosophy, for he was a skilled master of this subject.
Thus by teaching them ethics he restrained their barbarous customs; by instructing them in the science of nature, he made them live naturally under laws of their own, which they possess in written form to this day and call bi-lageineis {"laws"}. He taught them logic and made them skilled in reasoning beyond all other races; he showed them practical knowledge and so persuaded them to abound in good works. By explaining theoretical knowledge he urged them to contemplate the progress of the twelve constellations {of the zodiac} and the courses of the planets passing through them, and the whole of astronomy. He told them how the disc of the moon waxes or wanes, and showed them how much the fiery globe of the sun exceeds in size our earthly planet. He explained with which names or designations in the arching heavens the three hundred forty-six stars hurtle from their rising to their setting.
Think, I pray you, what pleasure it was for these brave men, when for a little space they had leisure from warfare, to be instructed in the teachings of philosophy!
You might have seen one scanning the position of the heavens and another investigating the nature of plants and bushes. Here stood one who studied the waxing and waning of the moon, while still another investigated solar eclipses and observed how those bodies which rush to go toward the east are whirled around and borne back to the west by the rotation of the heavens. When they had learned the reason, they were at rest.
These and various other matters Decaeneus taught the Goths in his wisdom and gained marvelous repute among them, so that he ruled not only the common men but their kings.'
Torsten