--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@> wrote:
> >
> > At 8:37:45 PM on Wednesday, December 1, 2010, Rick
> > McCallister wrote:
> >
> > > ***R If it's any help, Galindo and GalÃÂndez (son of
> > > Galindo) are Hispanic lastnames --this suggests some
> > > tie-in with Gothic
> >
> > A forename <Galindo> is found by the early 9th century, and
> > the Latinized <Galindus> is found from the 7th century.
> > There's even a feminine <Galinda> from the 10th century.
> > The origin of the name is uncertain. It's been suggested
> > that there's a connection with the region Galinden in East
> > Prussia. Some on the name of that region can be found at
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians>.
>
> I know, that's why I provided that link ;-)
>
> What might have been the case is that the Western Balts were the
> δοÏ
λοι (nice word; means both "subject" and "slave" in Herodotus) of
> the Germanic-speaking Przeworsk and the Slavs the δοÏ
λοι of various
> Iranian-speaking groups.
>
> BTW I was wondering that if *ga-lin-d- "bound; slave" is the correct
> etymology for the Galindae, whether Galatian
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia
> http://tinyurl.com/32n3flg
> and Laeti
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laeti
> are the same word?
>
> The Galatians are generally called Celts, and their language deemed
> Celtic on the basis of the statement of St Jerome that the Galatians
> and the
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treveri
> http://tinyurl.com/39vnwzv
> spoke the same language. But the Gallicness of the Treveri is
> disputed; they might have been Belgic, and they thought of
> themselves as Germanic. The Protogenes inscription mentions them
> being together with the Sciri,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii
> so one wonders whether they had some connection with the Bastarnae.
> The descendants of the Galatians, the Scordisci
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci
> cf.
> http://tinyurl.com/32n3flg
> ('the Galli Scordisci, who were settled at the confluence of the
> Save and the Danube, were said to be a remnant of them
> (Justin, 32.3; Strab. p. 293, 313), and to be mingled with Thracians
> and Illyrians.') are said by Livy to have a similar (or 'not
> dissimilar') language to the Bastarnae
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65316
>
> As for laeti
> http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64909
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German
> has no mandatory prefix *ga- -> ge- as standard (High) German does.
>
> BTW, I wonder if those characteristics that separate High German
> from all the other Germanic languages, might be due to Bastarnian
> influence (after they were driven from PoieneÅti-LukaÅ¡evka into
> Przeworsk by Burebista).
>
>
> Possibly also in
> de Vries
> 'latr adj. "lazy, lax",
> Icel. Faroese latur, Norw. Sw. lat, Da. lad.
> - Gothic lats, ae. læt, afr. let, as. lat, ahd. laz.
> - Latin lassus "tired".
> - cf. lata, láta, leti, letja, lo,skr und lo,t.'
>
> and several related words.
>
Tuomo Pekkanen
The Ethnic Origin of the δοÏ
λοÏÏÏÏοι
p. 113
'The truth is that a tribe or group of tribes known by a compound designation like the reconÂstructed ÏκÏθαι βαÏÏάÏναι is quite commonly mentioned in the ancient records by only one part of the compound. Our literary sources on the BasÂtarnae alone abound in examples of this wide-spread practice:
Plu. Aem. 9, 6
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Aemilius*.html
γαλάÏÎ±Ï . . ., βαÏÏÎÏναι καλοÏ
~νÏαι;
[He
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon
also secretly stirred up the Gauls settled along the Danube, who are called Basternae, an equestrian host and warlike;]
ib. 12, 4 βαÏÏÎÏναι;
[For there came to him (Perseus) from the Basternae, at his request, ten thousand horsemen with ten thousand men to run at their sides, all professional soldiers, men who knew not how to plough or to sail the seas, who did not follow the life of herdsmen, but who were ever practising one business and one art, that of fighting and conquering their antagonists.]
ib. 13,1 Ïο`Ï
Ï Î³Î±Î»Î¬ÏαÏ;
[For he not only sent away the Gauls after playing them false,...]
Plb. 25, 6 (26, 9)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/25*.html
ÏÏ~ν Î"αλαÏÏ~ν, but later in the same passage Ïο`Ï
Ï Î²Î±ÏÏάÏναÏ;
[A mission from the Dardanians now arrived, telling of the Bastarnae, their numbers, the huge size and the valour of their warriors, and also pointing out that Perseus and the Galatians were in league with this tribe.]
Liv.
40, 5, 10;
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0167%3Abook%3D40%3Achapter%3D5
[It happened that the agents had returned whom Philip had sent to the Bastarnae to summon aid and had brought from there noble young men and some of royal birth, one of whom promised his sister in marriage to a son of Philip; alliance with this tribe had cheered the spirits of the king. ]
40, 57 - 58;
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0167%3Abook%3D40%3Achapter%3D57
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0167%3Abook%3D40%3Achapter%3D58
[The death of Philip came at a fortunate time for delaying and for diverting strength from the war. For a few days later the tribe of the Bastarnae, after long solicitation, left their homes and with a great number of infantry and cavalry crossed the Hister. Thence Antigonus and Cotto came on in advance to bring the word to the king: Cotto was a nobleman among the Bastarnae, Antigonus one of Philip's courtiers who had often been sent with Cotto himself to stir up the Bastarnae. When they were not far from Amphipolis, first the rumour and then the authenticated tidings of the death of the king reached them. This event wholly upset the ordered plan of Philip. But it had been so arranged that Philip was to guarantee to the Bastarnae a safe passage through Thrace and also supplies. In order that he might be able to accomplish this, he had cultivated the chiefs of these districts with gifts, pledging his word that the Bastarnae would cross their territories peaceably. It had been his intention to destroy the race of the Dardanians and to give the Bastarnae homes on their lands. From this policy there was a double advantage if, in the first place, the Dardanians, a people always most hostile to Macedonia and watchful for occasions unfavourable to the kings, should be destroyed, and, secondly, if the Bastarnae, leaving their wives and children in Dardania, could be sent to plunder Italy. There was a road, he knew, through the country of the Scordisci to the Adriatic sea and Italy; an army could not be led by any other way. The Scordisci would readily give a passage to the Bastarnae: for they were not very different in either language or manners; and they themselves would join forces with them when they saw the Bastarnae going to plunder a most wealthy people. From that point his plans were adapted to any issue: if the Bastarnae were cut to pieces by the Romans, yet the removal of the Dardani and the booty from the remnants of the Bastarnae and the unhindered occupancy of Dardania would be his consolation; if on the other hand success attended their venture, while the attention of the Romans was distracted to the war with the Bastarnae Philip would recover his lost possessions in Greece. This was the plan of Philip.
At first the Bastarnae marched with their column peacefully inclined. Then, after the departure of Cotto and Antigonus and, not much later, after the receipt of the news of the death of Philip, neither were the Thracians easy to negotiate with nor could the Bastarnae be satisfied with what they could buy nor could they be kept in column without leaving the line of march. In consequence injuries were inflicted on both sides, and as these increased day by day war flared up. Finally, when the Thracians were unable to withstand the strength and numbers of the enemy, leaving the villages in the plains they fell back to a mountain of great height - they call it Donuca. When the Bastarnae tried to climb it, they were caught, as they attempted in vain to scale the heights of the mountains, by such a storm as that which, as the story goes, destroyed the Gauls as they pillaged Delphi. .]
41, 19, 4 ff.;
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0167%3Abook%3D41%3Achapter%3D19
[And the ambassadors who had been sent to investigate the situation in Macedonia had already returned to Rome and had reported that war in Dardania was now in progress. At the same time envoys had also arrived from King Perseus, who were to explain on his behalf that he had neither invited the Bastarnae nor was he instigating any of their actions. The senate neither absolved him of this blame nor charged him with it; they merely ordered that he be warned to take redoubled care to make it appear that he was respecting the treaty which was in force between him and the Romans. When the Dardanians saw that the Bastarnae were not only not leaving their territory, as they had hoped, but were growing more troublesome every day, and were relying on the aid of the neighbouring Thracians and the Scordisci, they decided that they must venture something, even rashly, and all from all sides met in arms at the town which was nearest to the camp of the Bastarnae. It was winter, and they had chosen that season in order that the Thracians and Scordisci might then depart to their own countries. When they learned that this had occurred as they had expected and that the Bastarnae were now alone, they divided their forces into two columns, one to march by the straight road to assail openly, the other, led around by an out-of-theway pass, to attack from the rear. But before they could surround the camp of the enemy the battle took place; and the defeated Dardanians were driven back into the town, which was about twelve miles distant from the camp of the Bastarnae. The victors followed in haste and invested the city, expecting confidently that the next day either the enemy would surrender on account of fear or they would take the town by storm. Meanwhile the other column of the Dardanians, which had followed the circuitous route, being ignorant of the defeat of their comrades, captured the camp of the Bastarnae, which had been left without a guard.]
42, 11, 4;
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0167%3Abook%3D42%3Achapter%3D11
[Then, beginning with the plans of Philip, he spoke of the death of Philip's son Demetrius, who opposed the war with Rome, and mentioned the summoning of the people of the Bastarnae from their homes, relying on whose aid Philip was to cross into Italy. While he was revolving such plans in his mind, death had overtaken him, and he had left his kingdom to the one who (he had seen) was most dangerous to the Romans]
perioch. 134 Bastarnae (Basternae),
http://www.livius.org/li-ln/livy/periochae/periochae134.html
[An account is given of the war fought by Marcus Crassus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Licinius_Crassus_Dives_%28consul_30_BC%29
against the Basterni, Moesians and other peoples.]
but the same group 44, 26, 2 ff. Galli;
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Livy/Livy44.html
[This was not the only chance which Perseus threw away in his avarice. Had he paid the money, it is possible that he might have had peace through Eumenes's instrumentality, and this was worth purchasing even at the cost of a part of his kingdom, or if Eumenes had played him false he could have held him up as his enemy loaded with his gold, and made the Romans regard him justly as their enemy. But the alliance with Gentius which had been already mooted and the invaluable support now offered of the Gauls who were pouring through Illyria, were both lost to him through his avarice. A body of 1000 cavalry came to offer their services, and with them the same number of foot soldiers. These latter used to run alongside the horses and when the trooper fell they seized the riderless horses and rode on them into the battle. These men had agreed to serve for ten gold pieces for each horseman and five for each footman; their leaders were to receive a thousand. Perseus went with half his whole force from his camp at the Elpeus and began to give notice through all the villages and cities adjoining their route that they were to prepare ample supplies of corn, wine and cattle. He took with him some horses with their trappings and some military cloaks as presents to their officers, and a small quantity of gold to be distributed amongst a few of the troops, trusting that the mass of the soldiery would be attracted by the hope of more. He went as far as the city of Almana and fixed his camp by the River Axius. The Gaulish army was lying in the neighbourhood of Desudaba in Maedica waiting for the stipulated pay. Perseus sent Antigonus, one of the nobles of his Court, to order the soldiers to shift their camp to Bylazora, a place in Paeonia, and their officers to go in a body to him. They were seventy-five miles distant from the king's camp on the Axius. After Antigonus had given them these orders and told them what an abundance of everything the king's care had provided for them on their line of march, and what presents of clothing and silver and horses the king had ready for the officers when they arrived, they replied that they would find out all about this on the spot. They then enquired whether they had brought the gold to be distributed according to the agreement amongst the horse and foot. To this there was no reply. Then their chief Claudicus said, "Go back! Tell the king the Gauls will not move a step further unless they receive the gold and the hostages." On this being reported to the king he held a council of war. When it became obvious what the unanimous decision would be, the king began to descant on the perfidy and savagery of the Gauls, vices which many had already experienced to their ruin. It was a dangerous thing to admit so vast a multitude into Macedonia; they might find them more troublesome as allies than the Romans as enemies; 5000 cavalry were quite enough to make use of in the war, and not too many to be dangerous. ]
(note BTW here anf Plutach's Aemilius above the use by these Bastarnae/Gauls of the two-man cavalry-infantery unit, identical to the one Caesar describes for Ariovistus; )
App. Mac. 18 γÎÏαι (cf. Liv. 44, 26, 2 ff. [above] Galli);
[Genthius, king of a tribe of Illyrians bordering on Macedonia, having formed an alliance with Perseus in consideration of 300 talents, of which he had received a part down, made an attack upon Roman Illyria, and when the Romans sent Perpenna and Petilius as ambassadors to inquire about it, he put them in chains. When Perseus learned this he decided not to pay the rest of the money, thinking that now the Romans would make war on him for this outrage. He also sent legates to the Getae on the other side of the Danube, and he offered money to Eumenes if he would come over to his side, or negotiate for him a peace with Rome, or help neither party in the contest. He hoped either that Eumenes would do some one of these things, which could not be kept secret from the Romans, or that he should cause Eumenes to be suspected by the very attempt. Eumenes refused to come over to his side, and he demanded 1,500 talents for negotiating a peace, or 1,000 for remaining neutral.
But now Perseus, learning that 10,000 foot and as many horse were coming to him as mercenaries from the Getae, began forthwith to despise Eumenes, and said that he would pay nothing for his neutrality, for that would be a disgrace to both of them, but for negotiating a peace he would not fail to pay, and would deposit the money in Samothrace until the treaty was concluded, so fickle and penurious in all matters had he become in his infatuation. Nevertheless, one of the things that he hoped for took place: Eumenes fell under suspicion at Rome.
When the Getae had crossed the Danube, it was claimed that there was due to Cloelius, their leader, 1,000 gold staters and, also, ten to each horseman and five to each foot-soldier, the whole amounting to a little over 150,000 pieces of gold. Perseus sent messengers to them bearing military cloaks, gold necklaces, and horses for the officers, and 10,000 staters. When he was not far from their camp he sent for Cloelius. The latter asked the messengers whether they had brought the gold, and when he learned that they had not, he ordered them to go back to Perseus. When Perseus learned this, he was again misled by his evil genius, and complained among his friends of the fickleness and bad faith of the Getae, and pretended to be afraid to receive 20,000 of them in his camp. He said that he could hardly subdue 10,000 of them if they should rebel.
While saying these things to his friends, he offered other fictions to the Getae and asked for half of their force, promising to give them the gold that he had on hand - so inconsistent was he, and so anxious about the money that he had ordered to be thrown into the sea a little while before. Cloelius, seeing the messengers returning, asked in a loud voice whether they had brought the gold, and when they wanted to talk about something else he ordered them to speak of the gold first. When he learned that they did not have it, he led his army home without waiting to hear another word from them. Thus Perseus deprived himself of this powerful force of auxiliaries, which had opportunely arrived. He was so foolish, also, that while wintering with a large army at Phila he made no incursion into Thessaly, which furnished supplies to the Romans, but sent a force to Ionia to prevent the bringing of supplies to them from that quarter. ]
Note here Cloelius = Livy's Claudicus/Clondicus (different manuscript forms?),
ie. the name might have been *kloN-l-/*klon-d-.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0168:book%3D44\
:chapter%3D26
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66662
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65686
App. Mac. 11;
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_macedonia3.html
[Afterward the ambassadors, who were sent to the Bastarnae, reported that they had observed that Macedonia was strongly fortified and had abundant war material, and that its young men were well drilled; and these things also disturbed the Romans. ]
App. Mith. 15; 69;
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_mithridatic_03.html#%A715
[You should bear in mind that Mithridates is ruling his ancestral domain, which is 350 kilometers long, and that he has acquired many neighboring nations, the Colchians, a very warlike people, the Greeks bordering on the Euxine, and the barbarian tribes beyond them. He has allies also ready to obey his every command, Scythians, Taurians, Bastarnae, Thracians, Sarmatians, and all those who dwell in the region of the Don and Danube and the Sea of Azov. Tigranes of Armenia is his son-in-law and the Arsacid king of Parthia is his ally. He has a large number of ships, some in readiness and others building, and apparatus of all kinds in abundance.]
App. Ill. 4; 22 βαÏÏάÏναι (βαÏÏÎÏναι);
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_illyrian_5.html#%A725
[Theirs is also Pannonian territory, on the river Save, on which is situated a city strongly fortified by the river and by a very large ditch encircling it. For this reason Augustus greatly desired to possess it as a magazine convenient for a war against the Dacians and the Bastarnae on the other side of the Ister, which is there called the Danube, but a little lower down is called the Ister. The Save flows into it, and Augustus caused ships to be built in the latter stream to bring provisions to the Danube for him. ]
App. Syr. 6 γαλάÏαι.
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_syriaca_02.html#%5B%A76%5D
[Then [king]Antiochus[III the Great] went down to the Hellespont and crossed over to Chersonesus and possessed himself of a large part of Thrace by conquest or surrender. He freed the Greeks who were under subjection to the Thracians, and conciliated the Byzantines in many ways, because their city was admirably situated at the outlet of the Euxine Sea. By gifts and by fear of his warlike preparations he brought the Galatians into his alliance, because he considered them formidable by reason of their bodily size. [194 BCE] Then he went back to Ephesus and sent as ambassadors to Rome Lysias, Hegesianax, and Menippus. ]
In all these cases the context and the historical facts mentioned in it prove that these different names relate to one and the same group of tribes, the Bastarnae.'
And here it seems that Galatae/Gauls actually *were* the Bastarnae (who were also Getae).
Torsten