Re: Limigantes

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:

>
> > > > Note that UEW is again fighting with the problem of explaing
> > > > away cognates between Germanic and all of Finno-Permic; they
> > > > resort to claiming that the Finnish sense of FP *lama was
> > > > influenced by Swedish lam "lame" and not that of the other FP
> > > > cognates, which have similar senses.
> > >
> > > The modern stance on *lama is that it is a loan from Germanic >
> > > Finnic and that the Permic cognates are unrelated (the
> > > palatalization and the vocalism are not explainable from a
> > > common FP root).
> >
> > Obviously there is a problem
>
> It's not obvious at all to me.

Obviously it isn't.

> > > Distribution in Komi but not Udmurt, and the a~a correspondence
> > > may however suggest loaning from BF.
> >
> > How? By what movement?
>
> The eastward expansion of the Vepses and Karelians. There are a
> number of other words that have been explain'd as loaned in this way
> (see Janne Saarikivi, "Substrata Uralica"). BTW, Veps and (northern
> dialects of) Komi also share the soundlaw *l > w (> v).
>
> *l > w also explains the initial palatalized lateral, as this sound
> change occur'd initially in Komi, but not Veps. So initial plain /l/
> could have then been interpreted as palatalized /l´/ upon loaning.

> > The least problematic proposal is one that ascribes the glosses I
> > listed to a pre-IE, pre-Uralic layer.
>
> Fails to explain the shape of the Komi word. Normally *a > o or ë
> (*kama "crust" > komyl´).

That objection would make sense if I had proposed that the Komi word was inherited Finno-Permic, but I proposed that it was from a pre-IE, pre-Uralic layer. Please pay attention.

> If you're talking about ALL the words (not just *lama), the least
> problematic proposal is to keep them separate so far.

Yes, that is what I am talking about. Standard procedure in cases where words can't be united within the established sound laws for a given language family, but they are too close phonetically and semantically not to be related somehow is to ascribe them to a substrate.

> -You didn't say anything of your own about Pit-Comb Ware Culture and
> lime trees, but it happens there is an "Uralic" word #lemeS- "lime,
> bast" (BF *lehmus, Mordv *leveS, Mari #lemeSte) which I've seen
> attributed as a substrate loan from precisely there.
>
> > > > Note in support of the proposed sl-/sw- alternation also the
> > > > l-/v- alternation in Komi S leń, P veń "ruhig, still
> > > > (Wetter); windstill"
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's not "alternation", it's a regular dialectal development
> > > l > v.
> >
> > It's not "is", it's "has been proposed to be"
> >
>
> Using "is" for statements of estabilish'd theory is perfectly
> acceptable. "The Earth is the third planet from the Sun, its mean
> distance from the Sun is 1.5*10^8 km, and its mass is 6*10^24 kg".
>

Not in a situation in which a theory, established or not, is being discussed, where it amounts to bias.

Anyway, Pekkanen has some data which might corroborate the scenario you mentioned.

Ptolemy
http://tinyurl.com/342s42x
'Below the Venedae are the Gythones, then the Finni, then the Sulones; below whom are the Phrungundiones; then the Avarini near the source of the Vistula river; below these are the Ombrones...'

Pekkanen, p. 50-52
'... Schütte has examined very closely the sources of Ptolemy's geographical work and also discussed the location of the Sulones and the origin of their name. Schütte based his research on the assumption that Ptolemy's atlas was constructed mainly on the basis of already-existing maps â€" not mainly on the basis of descriptive works â€" and he set out to reconstruct the supposed original maps or 'prototypes' used by Ptolemy and his predecessor Marinus. He divides these prototypes into eleven groups.4 The passage containing the Sulones belongs to the tenth group (E & F), which comprises Eastern Germany, Sarmatia, and Scythia. Schutte characterizes the prototypes Ε & F as follows: »The prototypes are duplicates of each other . . . Ε has Latin marks . . . , but seems to have been translated into Greek before the stage of Ptolemy. F has only Greek marks. â€" Ε & F are executed after the introduction of a well established Roman amber trade with the Baltic regions under the reign of Nero . . . Ε is totally displaced, F is correctly localised . . . Ε has been turned round, so that west becomes south, and east becomes north . . . The displacement was to a great deal due to the misinterpretation that the Baltic coast was taken for the river Vistula. This fact appears clearly from the Ptolemaic tribes, localised east of the Vistula: Ombrones = Ambrones, the companions of the Cimbri and Teutones; Auarinoi = the Varines, a well-known tribe from Mecklenburg; Frugundiones = Burgundians, inhabitants of Pomerania».1 In this way he comes to the conclusion that the names on the eastern bank of the Vistula, φίννοι, σούλωνες, φρονγουδίωνες, α`υαρινοί, `όμβρωνες, enumerated from north to south, really belonged to the Baltic coast, the Ombrones being the farthest to the west, the Finns farthest to the east. He writes the names corrected Finnoi, Gutones, Burgundiones, Ouarinoi, Ambrones. This suggestion of Schütte is very interesting and it seems to be confirmed by many facts. When the Î``υαρινοί and `όμβρωνες are transferred to the western part of the Baltic, it is no doubt easy to identify them with the historically well-known Varines and Ambrones. The location of the Finns in the eastern part of the Baltic is also in accord with historical facts. Our earliest record of the Burgundians is the mention of them in Plin. nat. 4, 99, where they are expressly located next to the Varines (Varinnae). Furthermore, the emendations `αυαρινοί > ο`υαρινοί, φρουγουδίωνες > βουργουνδίωνες, `όμβρωνες > `άμβρωνες are palaeographically very easy to understand. Only Schütte's identification of the name Σονλωνες with that of the Goths is too drastic.

Schütte pays no attention at all to the emendation of the name σονλωνες proposed by Müller, but is nevertheless convinced that the Suiones must have appeared in the original Ptolemaic lists: »It would have been impossible in a detailed list of tribes ... to omit mention of the Swedes, the only Scandinavian tribe of real Gothonic nationality noticed by Tacitus»."

Pekkanen has earlier identified the Sulones as Suiones. That means that the Fenni were the eastern neighbors of the Suiones on the Baltic coast east of the Vistula, ie the Aestii might have been the Baltic Finns, later migrating north under pressure from the Balts arriving from further south, cf. the exonym Eesti.


Torsten