Re: 'dyeus'

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> >>Why should it be (not the other way around)?
> >
> >Hehe, you didn't like that?
>
> Quite the contrary, ich komme Dir entgegen (you know, "die Asen",
> i.e. Uuodans Leute. Since the Altai region was their easternmost
> territory, so that one might assume that "dies/day" etc. was earlier
> than "tangrikut". :-)).

Dies etc is PIE, several thousand years before the Odin thing.
>
> >Because it's possible to unite the two reconstructed forms PIE
> >*di-ew and *di-en by positing that they were from *di-eŋ, which is
> >not a standard rule in PIE, so Occam tells us to seek a solution
> >outside PIE.
>
> Yeah. But one has to take more and more into consideration the
> fact that PIE speakers were or could have been "a substrate" to much
> of tribal configurations later known as "Turkic" populations & the
> like. Pre-historic PIE people (have) coexisted for many millennia
> with "Turkic" and "ugric"/"Uralic" ones.

I know, but we were talking about a possible Yeniseian origin.

***R My understanding is that Yenisseian speakers were in present day Tannu Tuva until the Turks and then the Mongols forced them to move north. I don't know if there is a Yennisseian substrate in Tuvan or not, other than possible topos. There is some speculation that Yenisseians formed part of the Hunnic Confederacy. But you probably know much more about all of this than I do.

> >so why not throw in
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisza
> >former Pathissus (Pa River?)
>
> This is rather an den Haaren herbeigezogen (and maybe by some
> Hungarian protochronists). But if yes, what's the link between
> thissus "river(?)" and diwus+tang(ri)/teng(ri)? The latter at least
> have the semantics "light, bright; divine + sky; divine".

There isn't any (that I know of), and I didn't claim there was. The tes-/ses- stuff was about the former geographical extent of the Yeniseian languages.

> >>"God" is the secondary meaning of TANG-/TENG-/TING- (or TNGR);
> >>the primary meaning of it is "(the blue) sky".
> >
> >Both in Turkic and IE the *tieŋ- means
> >1. sky,
> >2. the Sky God.
> >Which sense was primary is a moot point.
>
> It'd be a long way from the "sky" to thissus "river; Fluss
> (fliessen)" although "panta rhei". And I don't think that Hungarian
> could offer a link via tenger ['taen-gaer] "sea". (A Turkic river,
> running water is rather... su.)

Erh yes, see above.

> BTW, there was a place in Dacia called Patavissa (Patauissa),
> called by the Roman administration Potaissa. Today, its name
> is Turda (Hungarian Torda, German T(h)orenburg), in the Cluj
> county. But its quite far from Tisa/Tisza (about 200 km south
> of where it starts and 300-400 and more km from where Tisa's
> plains in East Hungary and Northern Serbia).
>
> In that region, there was (prior to the Roman conquest) a quite
> massive Celtic presence (interesting objects were found, e.g.
> http://www.satumare.insse.ro/phpfiles/1098608537_1_2059946589.jpg
> in the neighboring county, west of Cluj); the territory also
> belonged to the realm of the Germanic Gepids (under Ardarich & Co.).
> Vandals also cross the region or the adjacent regions North of
> it. (Followed by Avars and Slavs, and lesser known tribes speaking
> Turkic and Iranian idioms.)

OK, but as you say yourself it's not on the river Tisza. If there were a connection there coudn't aslso be a connection with Yeniseian ses-/tes "river".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniseian
Check out
http://tinyurl.com/2ut83kq

> >They had similar lifestyles, but different languages.
>
> Before being gradually assimilated into "Turkic", "Uralic" and
> "Mongolic" environments, those relevant "Asen" had spoken
> various PIE idioms (which is reflected even in the main and
> old vocabulary of Hungarian, whose words for "god, devil,
> some spirits, lady, gold, silver, cart, sword, bridge etc. are of
> Alanian and Persian descent; even the Persian notion Ahriman
> is reflected in that vocabulary from times prior to Slavic and
> German influences. So why should other Asian idioms be
> "exempted"? They aren't.).

I think you lost me here.

> One of the artefacts once belonging to some "upper crust" guy
> from those Saka/Scythian populations in the Altaic region were
> these, unearthed from a tumulus there, in the vicinity of the
> Issyk Lake (Issyk kul = Is�k g�l):
Check 'WATER' in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniseian

>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Issyk_Golden_Cataphract_Warrior.jpg
>
> This kind of people (esp. warriors) reached in certain periods
> even Scotlan (e.g. Sarmatians under Romans), the Iberian
> peninsula (Alans along with the Vandals, Goths and Suebians:
> "Gotalania" = Catalunya; Andalusia), and North Africa (Alans as
> "junior partners" of the Vandals).

I know.

> The "cataphract"-wearing mounted soldiers had special warring
> techniques quite superior to those used by Romans, Celts and
> Germanic contemporaries; in the 2nd century Chr. era Roman
> cavalery adopted even the dragon-kite-banner of those eastern
> "cousins" (the carrier was called "draconarius"). There is a theory
> stating that king Arthur and his knights are rather the memory
> of the Sarmatian warriors employed by Romans in Britain.

I know.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27139

> >They didn't change language much, but sought other solutions to
> >the problem of someone else's power structure on the land they felt
> >was theirs, or ought to be.
>
> Methinks, however, that any piece of info pertaining to those
> numerous pre-historic/ancient PIE-language groups ("Scythians",
> "Yuzhues", "Kushanites", "Hephtalites" etc.) after all could be of
> interest to you in "Odin's" context. (In that PIE-Uralic-Altaic
> "interface", methinks one has to be careful when evaluating
> what's the hen and the egg.) It took many centuries until various
> such populations became more or less Turkic (Avars, Khazars,
> Patzinaks, Qiptchaks ("red Scythians") a.k.a. Cumans = Tatars
> and Oguz-Turks as well as Uygur-Turks (which today is also
> confirmed by genetic research, as well as by occurrences here
> and there of individuals with remnants of the europid features,
> even in Mongolians and Xinjiang).
>
> Cf.:
>
> Davis-Kimball, Jeannine. 2002. Warrior Women:
> An Archaeologist's Search for History's Hidden Heroines.
> Warner Books, New York. 1st Trade printing, 2003.
> ISBN 0-446-67983-6
>
> Bulletin of the Asia Institute:
> The Archaeology and Art of Central Asia.
> Studies From the Former Soviet Union. New Series.
> Edited by B. A. Litvinskii and Carol Altman Bromberg.
> Translation directed by Mary Fleming Zirin. Vol. 8, (1994)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_burials
>
> Konstantin C^ugunov, Hermann Parzinger, Anatoli Nagler:
> Der skythische Fürstengrabhügel von Ar�an 2 in Tuva.
> Vorbericht der russisch-deutschen Ausgrabungen 2000-2002.
> In: Eurasia Antiqua 9 (2003)
>
> Prof. Parzinger (Dt. Archäol. Inst. Munich) & his & Russian teams
> (incl. elements on genetic, DNA, tests):
> in German(1/4 - 4/4)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUkeSm8A9Ws
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lwRC3rknns
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxgQVLY2o_w
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glLClnyCmu4
>
> (Researcher A. Nagler is an ethnic German from Russia)

Interesting videos.
As for the connection between the Odin thing and Iranian-speaking nomadic peoples (Sarmatians/Alans) the other George and myself had many and long arguments, as can seen in the archives.

>
> "Andronovo culture"
>

The
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
is 2300â€"1000 BCE.
The Odin thing is appr. 60 BCE.

Torsten

BTW you should switch to UTF-8, if you want to use funny characters.