From: Torsten
Message: 66528
Date: 2010-09-04
>Dies etc is PIE, several thousand years before the Odin thing.
>
>
> >>Why should it be (not the other way around)?
> >
> >Hehe, you didn't like that?
>
> Quite the contrary, ich komme Dir entgegen (you know, "die Asen",
> i.e. Uuodans Leute. Since the Altai region was their easternmost
> territory, so that one might assume that "dies/day" etc. was earlier
> than "tangrikut". :-)).
>I know, but we were talking about a possible Yeniseian origin.
> >Because it's possible to unite the two reconstructed forms PIE
> >*di-ew and *di-en by positing that they were from *di-eÅ, which is
> >not a standard rule in PIE, so Occam tells us to seek a solution
> >outside PIE.
>
> Yeah. But one has to take more and more into consideration the
> fact that PIE speakers were or could have been "a substrate" to much
> of tribal configurations later known as "Turkic" populations & the
> like. Pre-historic PIE people (have) coexisted for many millennia
> with "Turkic" and "ugric"/"Uralic" ones.
> >so why not throw inThere isn't any (that I know of), and I didn't claim there was. The tes-/ses- stuff was about the former geographical extent of the Yeniseian languages.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisza
> >former Pathissus (Pa River?)
>
> This is rather an den Haaren herbeigezogen (and maybe by some
> Hungarian protochronists). But if yes, what's the link between
> thissus "river(?)" and diwus+tang(ri)/teng(ri)? The latter at least
> have the semantics "light, bright; divine + sky; divine".
> >>"God" is the secondary meaning of TANG-/TENG-/TING- (or TNGR);Erh yes, see above.
> >>the primary meaning of it is "(the blue) sky".
> >
> >Both in Turkic and IE the *tieÅ- means
> >1. sky,
> >2. the Sky God.
> >Which sense was primary is a moot point.
>
> It'd be a long way from the "sky" to thissus "river; Fluss
> (fliessen)" although "panta rhei". And I don't think that Hungarian
> could offer a link via tenger ['taen-gaer] "sea". (A Turkic river,
> running water is rather... su.)
> BTW, there was a place in Dacia called Patavissa (Patauissa),OK, but as you say yourself it's not on the river Tisza. If there were a connection there coudn't aslso be a connection with Yeniseian ses-/tes "river".
> called by the Roman administration Potaissa. Today, its name
> is Turda (Hungarian Torda, German T(h)orenburg), in the Cluj
> county. But its quite far from Tisa/Tisza (about 200 km south
> of where it starts and 300-400 and more km from where Tisa's
> plains in East Hungary and Northern Serbia).
>
> In that region, there was (prior to the Roman conquest) a quite
> massive Celtic presence (interesting objects were found, e.g.
> http://www.satumare.insse.ro/phpfiles/1098608537_1_2059946589.jpg
> in the neighboring county, west of Cluj); the territory also
> belonged to the realm of the Germanic Gepids (under Ardarich & Co.).
> Vandals also cross the region or the adjacent regions North of
> it. (Followed by Avars and Slavs, and lesser known tribes speaking
> Turkic and Iranian idioms.)
> >They had similar lifestyles, but different languages.I think you lost me here.
>
> Before being gradually assimilated into "Turkic", "Uralic" and
> "Mongolic" environments, those relevant "Asen" had spoken
> various PIE idioms (which is reflected even in the main and
> old vocabulary of Hungarian, whose words for "god, devil,
> some spirits, lady, gold, silver, cart, sword, bridge etc. are of
> Alanian and Persian descent; even the Persian notion Ahriman
> is reflected in that vocabulary from times prior to Slavic and
> German influences. So why should other Asian idioms be
> "exempted"? They aren't.).
> One of the artefacts once belonging to some "upper crust" guyCheck 'WATER' in
> from those Saka/Scythian populations in the Altaic region were
> these, unearthed from a tumulus there, in the vicinity of the
> Issyk Lake (Issyk kul = Is�k g�l):
>I know.
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Issyk_Golden_Cataphract_Warrior.jpg
>
> This kind of people (esp. warriors) reached in certain periods
> even Scotlan (e.g. Sarmatians under Romans), the Iberian
> peninsula (Alans along with the Vandals, Goths and Suebians:
> "Gotalania" = Catalunya; Andalusia), and North Africa (Alans as
> "junior partners" of the Vandals).
> The "cataphract"-wearing mounted soldiers had special warringI know.
> techniques quite superior to those used by Romans, Celts and
> Germanic contemporaries; in the 2nd century Chr. era Roman
> cavalery adopted even the dragon-kite-banner of those eastern
> "cousins" (the carrier was called "draconarius"). There is a theory
> stating that king Arthur and his knights are rather the memory
> of the Sarmatian warriors employed by Romans in Britain.
> >They didn't change language much, but sought other solutions toInteresting videos.
> >the problem of someone else's power structure on the land they felt
> >was theirs, or ought to be.
>
> Methinks, however, that any piece of info pertaining to those
> numerous pre-historic/ancient PIE-language groups ("Scythians",
> "Yuzhues", "Kushanites", "Hephtalites" etc.) after all could be of
> interest to you in "Odin's" context. (In that PIE-Uralic-Altaic
> "interface", methinks one has to be careful when evaluating
> what's the hen and the egg.) It took many centuries until various
> such populations became more or less Turkic (Avars, Khazars,
> Patzinaks, Qiptchaks ("red Scythians") a.k.a. Cumans = Tatars
> and Oguz-Turks as well as Uygur-Turks (which today is also
> confirmed by genetic research, as well as by occurrences here
> and there of individuals with remnants of the europid features,
> even in Mongolians and Xinjiang).
>
> Cf.:
>
> Davis-Kimball, Jeannine. 2002. Warrior Women:
> An Archaeologist's Search for History's Hidden Heroines.
> Warner Books, New York. 1st Trade printing, 2003.
> ISBN 0-446-67983-6
>
> Bulletin of the Asia Institute:
> The Archaeology and Art of Central Asia.
> Studies From the Former Soviet Union. New Series.
> Edited by B. A. Litvinskii and Carol Altman Bromberg.
> Translation directed by Mary Fleming Zirin. Vol. 8, (1994)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_burials
>
> Konstantin C^ugunov, Hermann Parzinger, Anatoli Nagler:
> Der skythische Fürstengrabhügel von Ar�an 2 in Tuva.
> Vorbericht der russisch-deutschen Ausgrabungen 2000-2002.
> In: Eurasia Antiqua 9 (2003)
>
> Prof. Parzinger (Dt. Archäol. Inst. Munich) & his & Russian teams
> (incl. elements on genetic, DNA, tests):
> in German(1/4 - 4/4)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUkeSm8A9Ws
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lwRC3rknns
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxgQVLY2o_w
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glLClnyCmu4
>
> (Researcher A. Nagler is an ethnic German from Russia)
>The
> "Andronovo culture"
>