Re: Another tamga mark?

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--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- On Sat, 7/24/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> Obviously the word [darraþ-/daruþ GK]must have been taken over after
> the Grimm-shift. That took place during the expansion of the Suevi
> under Ariovistus and followers.

Ie. taken over by the sociological group who set the trend of Grimm-shifting.

> ****GK: Some time ago Piotr had said that he would comment on this
> particular time frame as a possibility for the Grimm-shift. I'm not
> sure your position is anything more solid than a simple postulated
> assertion.****

That position is from Kuhn, so it seems I'll have to translate for your benefit what I quoted already in
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65723
Vor- und frühgermanische Ortsnamen in Norddeutschland und den Niederlanden
(Pre-Germanic and Early Germanic Place Names in North Germany and the
Netherlands)

"Rome in general paid no attention to such matters. On the other hand stand strong arguments of various kinds which speak for continued existence of pre-Germanic dialects until at least far into the Roman times.

The first clue is provided by the transition of PIE k- to h-(ch-) in anlaut. That was probably the last act of the Grimm-shift. The unwavering writing of C- in the name of the Cimbri and then in Pliny in Sinus Codanus and mare Cronium, which all correspond to a Germanic H-, led me early on to the conclusion that said shift had not yet penetrated fully in the North in the lifetime of Christ (Namn och Bygd 29,112 f. [here 28]). The situation would have been similar in the Low Countries and on the Lower Rhine. The K- of the name of the tribe of
Cannine-fates, testified from Pliny on, is still pre-Germanic (cf. p. 36). Although it is believed that its first part lives on - with a preserved K- - in Kennemerland (Nordholland, old Kinnehem Kinhem), but its real Germanic form would appear in the inscriptional Mercurio Channini- (from the Eifel) and further in the place name Hennen (on the Ruhr, old Hennene, from *Hannin-), a neighbor to Villigst, which seems to contain the name of the Belgae people. The situation is similar with the Cugerni (left of the Rhine by Neuß and Xanten) beside the later Frankish Hugones. A forest in the vicinity of Essen, which
later is called Heissi Hesiwald, is still called silva Caesia by Tacitus. Heerlen, east of Maastricht, is documented as Coriovallum in Roman times, Herven, east of Nijmegen, as Carvium (cf. L. Weisgerber, Bonner Jbb. 154, 98 and 101). These names are pre-Germanic, and yet their K-, also in Coriovallum which is far from the Rhine, has been shifted, and so is the K- of many Belgian names of these layers, as Harendre, location unknown, probably north of Brussels (-andr name), and Harveng, south of Mons, 868 Harvinium, probably closely
related to Carvium/Herven (I owe these names to M. Gysseling). In the South on the other hand the new H- is attested already in the second century BCE [55 BCE according to Markey] Harigasti (Negau helmet) and in the first BCE in Harudes (Caesar). The much later Grimm-shift on the lower Rhine is much more comprehensible if the spread of it had to circumvent the North West Block, that is if that, or at least a large part of it, at that time did not yet speak Germanic. Also in that direction point the fact that although most k- have been shifted - tribe names as Chamavi, Cherusci and Chatti, mountain names as Hümmling, Hils and Harz, place names as Harste, Heerse etc - still all
manners of old k- have come through unshifted - thus in the place names Kaldern and Callendoorn and the appellatives knoll besides hnoll, Kotten [cot] beside Hütte [hut], Kumme Kumpf (cf. Greek kúmbos "bowl") beside Humpen, kring- (cf. Umbrian cring-) beside hring- "ring", Krippe [crib] (cf. Latin corbis) beside ON hrip "basket", OHG clinga "ravine" beside OE hlinc, and klingen (cf. Latin clangere) beside ON hlakka "scream" -. If the conclusions above are correct, then these last names and words can hardly have become Germanic before the Roman period."

>
> I assume therefore that the word was introduced with the object
> itself by that elite which came to power in Przeworsk just before
> that.
>
> ****GK: I still don't see
> (1)how one can connect Ariovistus with the Przeworsk culture people
> as his peculiar people

Part of it, by conquest, and for some of the peoples (eg. the Nemetes
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58325
) by signing up to his cause of further conquest. They can't all have been equally committed, since Caesar left the Nemetes, Triboci and Vangiones to settle on left bank of the Rhine, in spite of his stated policy of driving all Germani back across the Rhine.

> and
> (2)what was the nature and identity of this new elite

Invaders from the east, the invading area being peopled by a pre-Grimm-shift speaking layer from Jastorf and by a Slavic-speaking layer (Charudes).
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58326

> (the discussion about "inhumations" seems to have petered out...).

And?

> as to (1). I would argue that Ariovistus was a Suebian (as that term
> was understood in Caesar's time, i.e. before it acquired an expanded
> significance in Strabo and even more in Tacitus). We don't know its
> early unit references, though possibly/probably the Semnones were
> already "in" (not yet the Hermunduri: cf. Pliny NH IV.100, or the
> Marcomanni).When Suebian pressure was at its height, in the
> immediate generations after Caesar, the best geographer of the times
> (Strabo) did not identify the area of Przeworsk with them but rather
> with the Lugii (cf. G. 7.1.3: the Lugii are not yet "Suebians" in
> Strabo as they are in Tacitus).

That is explained if we see the Suebi as 'those who followed Ariovistus'; by defintion then there would be none of them left in Przeworsk after Ariovistus moved on.

> We do have archaeological evidence that Przeworsk people
> participated in the Suebian pressure

That must be the evidence I translated for you that Ariovistus can be traced from Przeworsk to Wetterau. Cf.
http://tinyurl.com/38cho2g
'Much circumstantial evidence points to the participation of Germanic people from Polish lands in the events that took place in the first half of 1st century BC and found their culmination in Gaul in 58 BC, as related in Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico. At the time of the Suebi tribal confederation led by Ariovistus arrival in Gaul, a rapid decrease of settlement density can be observed in the areas of the upper and middle Oder River basin. In fact the Gubin group of the Jastorf culture disappeared then entirely, which may indicate this group's identity with one of the Suebi tribes. The western regions of the Przeworsk culture were also vacated (Lower Silesia, Lubusz Land and western Greater Poland), which is where the tribes accompanying the Suebi tribes must have come from. Burial sites and artifacts characteristic of the Przeworsk culture have been found in Saxony, Thuringia and Hesse, on the route of the Suebi offensive. The above mentioned regions of western Poland had not become repopulated and economically developed again until in 2nd century AD.'

> (though it's unclear whether this already began with Ariovistus:

No, it isn't; see above. Don't try to confuse the issue.

> if it did, then the Marcomanni
> might be candidates for "Przeworsk migrants", as they were on the
> Main (where Przeworsk items were identified for the second half of
> the 1rst c BCE) before Maroboduus took them to Bohemia).

You could say that, if by 'Przeworsk' you mean 'the Przeworsk culture after Ariovistus left'.

> The elite would have been the first to Grimm-shift.
>
> *****GK: Why would a secondary group accompanying the Suebians do
> that, if that is indeed the right time frame anyway (waiting for
> Piotr)?*****

I can't answer an argument that call an elite secondary. By definition, an elite, at least in times of happiness or at least happy anticipation, is something which is emulated by the rest of society.


> The question now is: why from Greek?
>
> ****GK: Might this itself suggest an earlier time frame?*****

The time of the Grimm-shift is a terminus post quem.


Here's another fact:
http://bartoszkontny.pradzieje.pl/index_pl.php?content=time_of_war_03
'The standardization is manifested also by the forms of some artifacts: shaft weapon heads, which are a particularly individual element of grave goods, become more uniform in the analysed phase (especially types VI-VIII according to Kaczanowski (1995). Moreover, the shaft weapon heads allow to draw some conclusions about the fighting techniques. This is connected with the well known opinion that in the case of occurrence of two shaft weapon heads in one burial, one was considered as an element of a lance and the other, of a javelin (spear). The lance would serve in hand-to-hand combat whereas the javelin was used for throwing. The possibility of distinguishing such two kinds of shaft weapons has been already discussed for a considerable length of time (e.g., Nadolski 1951,
p. 150; 1954, p. 51; Wołągiewiczowie 1963, p. 11; Godłowski 1977, p. 52; Fogel 1979, p. 88; 1982, p. 97; Kaczanowski 1995, p. 9). To clarify this issue for the Przeworsk culture the author studied the changes in frequency of burials equipped in more than one head in the Late Pre-Roman Period and in the Roman Period (Diagram 3)[23]. A following picture of changes has been obtained: more than one head can be found already in burials of phase A1, but in this and the following phase they are very scarce. From phase A3 the discussed combination grows in importance and the increasing role of javelins is supported also by the appearance of barbed spearheads in the grave furnishing (see Dąbrowska 1988, p. 43-44)[24]. The upward trend continues in the following periods to achieve culmination in phase B2b (more than 70% of weapon graves contained more than one shaft weapon head). Afterwards the importance of such assemblages in grave goods declines and they are finally absent in phases C2-D[25]'

In other words, with phase A3, the phase of my postulated invasion, a burial set with two sets of shaft weapon heads, of which one is that of a javelin, ie a darrað (OE daroð "leichter wurfspeer", ie "javelin". It seem very likely that this javelin was called, by the people who introduced them into Przeworsk, by the Greek words δόρυ, dóru and δούρατ-, dóurat-. Why would the elite call them that, if they were indigenous to Przeworsk?


Torsten