From: Torsten
Message: 66273
Date: 2010-07-08
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
This needs translating. So...
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@> wrote:
> >
> > On 2008-12-02 00:34, tgpedersen wrote:
> >
> > > Any relation of the suffix of Gmc kindin-, druhtin-, þiudan-?
> >
> > I don't think so. The Slavic suffix has a long vowel. A connection
> > with *(ed)inU 'one' can be suspected (note that originally it
> > occurred only in the singular). Besides, *-inU is semantically
> > empty in the sense that e.g. Pol. Grek and Greczyn both mean 'a
> > Greek', whereas the Germanic suffix in question forms words with
> > derived meanings.
> >
>
from Grimm's Wörterbuch
WUTESHEER, Wütesheer, Wütenheer, n., 'wild hunt'.
The interpretation of the first element of the composite depends on
evaluation of the Wodan-Wode problem. The ON situation with the divine names Oðr (< germ. *Wo:ðuz, nominalized adj.; attested as 'sacred' u-stem by the dat. sg. ôðri and the run. name dat. sg. Woðuriðe, ...) and Oðinn (see below) corresponds to the German pair Wode:Wodan, however the precise relationship of Wode to Wodan and to ON Ã"ðr is dubious, equating Wode with Ã"ðr and the assumption that Wodan is a derivation from an abstract concept on which the eponymous divine name Wode is based (Helm Wodan [1946] 13ff.) is risky: 'Wuotan' is attested securely in German territory since the 7th century (see runendenkmäler 1, 462 Arntz-Zeiss), 'Wutesheer' since 13th century, 'WodenÂheer' since the 15th, 'Wode', 'Wütte' outside the composite however not until the 16th century. This name stands above all in Low German tradition as synonymous for Wodan, frequently in the function of the wild hunter, but also as fertility demon etc:
der heilige Christ vnd Wütte mit einander ritten
the holy Christ and Wütte with each other rode
M. BAPST wunderbuch (1590) Vb. after older source, ... ; N. Geyse (1593) interpreted the word as 'dem afgade Woden', "the idol Woden" and 'Wodendüvel' "Woden devil" in:
Wode hale dinem rosse nu voder,
Wode get for your horse now fodder
nu distel unde dorn,
now thistle and thorn
tom andern jar beter korn!
to the other year better corn!
in J. Grimm deutsche mythologie 4 129.
Abundantly attested from later dialects, cf.
Wood (listed with numerous variants and supplemetary literature)
Mensing schlesw.-holst. 5, 684;
Wode (for Lauenburg) jahrb. f. d. landeskde d. herzogth. Schlesw.,
Holst. u. Lauenb. 4, 161; cf. 4, 284;
Wode Handelmann Weihnachten in Schlesw.-Holst. (1866) 34;
Wod Mi Mecklenb.-Vorpommern 108b;
Wote, Wotte Stauff v. d. March Nordmähren 97;
Wuot (as devil's name in Oberengadin) Germania 5, 68.
...
That Wode with ON Ã"ðr represents a Gmc divine name *Wo:ðuz, can not be considered certain, given its late attestation, the idea, still advanced by Mogk in Hoops reallex. 4, 559 and by von Helm altgerm.
religionsÂgesch. 1, 262, that 'Wode' should be interpreted as personalized from a collective *wo:d "train of dead souls, wild hunt" and as 'Wodan' as the lord of the *wo:d (cf. þiudans : þiuda, koÃranos : harja-) is rejected today, since on the formal side the existence of this collective cannot be made sufficiently probable [me: but see
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61822
and SerboCroatian vod "conduit; army unit"] and on the contents side Wodan, Wode cannot be understood solely as a god of the dead [me: but an interpretation of him as the historical Ariovistus claiming what is now Germany for his army, later worshiped as god, would make much more sense], see ...
'Wode' as nominalized adj *wo:d might mean "the raging one", however it still seems most likely for it to be explained as a distortion of 'Wodan' (possibly as back formation from 'Wodenheer' [heer "army"] (corresponding formations in Upper German see below); that would help explain the absence of the composite in Low German, the main area of attestation of 'Wode'). If one doesn't equate Wode and Wodan, it remains contentious whether one with J. Grimm deutsche mythol. 4110 (cf. also 766) in Wode should see Wodan downgraded to demon or instead reversely a pre-Gmc. demon stepped into the role of the Germanic god, or the Christian devil, whose designation as "the raging one" perhaps was adapted to the Germanic god, ... .
As for 'Wodan', it is, as ON Ã"ðinn, OE OS Wo:den, a nominalization of the derivation of the nominal stem *wo:ða- (see above col. 2474) present in OHG wuotan (uuotanherz tyrannus ...), cf. ON Ullinn: Ullr (= got. wulþus), see ... .
Since further we must assume OE *WÅ"den, OS *Wo:din (cf. OE we:denÂheort; Engl. Wednesday (corresponding forms however nor documented before the 13th century); OFris. wernisdei; Low German wehdenÂdunk, see ...) with suffix ablaut, we should, as de Vries Altnordisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch 416 start from Gmc. *Wo:ðanaz : *Wo:ðinaz.
The composite is traditionally explained from OHG *Wuotanes heri, cf. ...; the full form is however barely attested (see below). The documented main types are Wutesheer, predominantly in Swiss and Swabian territory, and Wütenheer, Wodenheer, for Alsace and Middle German dialects. - In Low German the word, in contrast to the simplex Wode (se above), is hardly present at all. For the abundantly attested dialectal side forms (gutesheer, mutesheer u.a.) [me: note how nicely the g-, m- and w- as anlaut variants match the derivations postulated by my from ÅWod-] cf. in particular ... .
Competing High German composites are the folk etymologically reshaped wütendes heer (see wüten G 2), wütiges heer (see wütig 5 a); see also wütnisch. Sporadic contamination of the genitive form of Wuotan and wutung (for Lat. furia, see use on persons under wütung 3) produces Wutungis her ... . Thus the word after ejecting the second element of the composite (cf. Wuetas, Wüetis etc Swiss id. ibd., Mutes, Wutes Fischer schwäb. ibd) also be used synonymously to Furia (female demon) assuming female gender:
(wenn) die kurtzÂweil etwan zu:
einer unsinnigkeit gerat .. .
dann gehet es mich nicht an, sonder gehört zu:
der hellischen Wüetes, furie genannt
S. Franck Erasmi morie encomion 72 Götz.;
(der krieg ist) so ein wüetend doll ding,
dasz auch die poeten dargeben,
in von der Wüetesz her kommen sein
ibd. 123.
Meaning.
The word designates the "wild hunt', a group of undead, who until very recent times was believed (...) to be active in raging storm, esp. at night under the leadership of Wodan or Wode (see above) or of certain semi-historical persons (see J. Grimm ibd 767 ff.). The make-up of the wild hunt (witches, devils, undead spirits) and their effect on people (mostly calamitous, occasionally felicitous) vacillates in popular belief, ... ; the interpretations in Höfler kult. geheimbünde d. germanen 1 (1934) should be noted, esp. the chapter on 'the legends of the wild hunt as reflections of extatic secret cults' p. 1 ff.:
daz hoyste numen dyuiuon (divinum)
the hight numen divinum
daz mize mich noch hint bewarn
which ? me still has preserved (?)
vor allen vneholden:
from all demons:
Truttan vnde Wutan,
Truttan and Wutan,
Wutanes her vnde alle sine man
Wotan's army and all his men
(Middle German ms. from the 14. century copied from an earlier ms.)
in: zs. f. dt. altert. 41 (1897) 337;
tambûr bûsûn schalmîgen
drum trombone shawms
hört man in lüften schrîgen
hears one in the air scream
sam ungewiters dunres krach,
plus storm's thunder's cracking,
der dôz dur tal und berge brach
which ? through valley and mountain broke
daz ez dâ von moht zittern:
that it there from might tremble
er fuor mit ahzic rittern
there rode with eighty knights
rûschent sam daz Wuotes her
rushing ? the Wuotes army
(around 1300) Reinfried von Braunschweig 479 Bartsch;
bî deus salter ich dich swer,
by deus psalter I thee swear
und bî Wutungis her,
and by Wutungis army,
bî Peters ban bast
by Peter's ? ?
banne ich dich vil vast
ban I thee much fast
(begin 14th century) Rüdeger v. Munre in:
gesammtabenteuer 3, 77 v. d. Hagen;
da qwam er (Heinrich d. Löwe) vnder daz Wodenhere,
there came he (Hernry the Lion) among the Woden army
da die bösen geiste ir wonung han.
where the evil spirits their abode have.
da begegent ym eyner vff der fart,
there meets him one on the voyage
der waz sich grusz vnd vngehüwer,
he was (himself) big and monstrous
dar abe erschrack der fürste tzart
there however was terrified the prince ?
(Middle German, before 1474)
M. Wyssenherre von dem edeln hern von Bruneczwigk
166 Seehaussen;
das glaub als ob ich schwer:
that believe as if I swear
dem wilden Wuettiszher
like the wild Wuettisz army
fûr er glych durch den wald
he travelled through the forest
(1486) in Schmellkr-Fr. bayer. 2, 1057;
der stier von Ure treib ein grob gesang,
the bull of Ure made a coarse song
das in holz, in feld, in berg in tal erklang,
which in forest, in field, in mountain, in valley resonated
zue hören grusam, als wär's ein Wuetisher
to hear terrible, as were it a Wuetis army
(1499) in: schweiz. id. 2, 1557;
etc.
One is reminded of the Grek/Greczyn pair.
Seems I'm not the first to propose Wodan as the leader of a *wo:ð-.
Grimm also mentions that the verb wüten "rage, harrow" etc is
documented much earlier the Wut "rage", which makes me suspect an
early *wo:ð- "(armed) group" was pushed out by *wo:ð- "rage"
back-formed from the verb. *wo:ð-ja-, which went sematically "plunder,
harass" > "rage".
Interesting also that the Wutes-heer is known only from southern
Germany, old Helvetian territory.
BTW I'll posit two roots
*wo:d-(j)u- -> Gmc. *wo:ðu, Slavic vodju "leader in war"
and
*wo:d-aÅ- -> Gmc. *wo:ð-an, Slavic voda "leader in war"
Torsten