Re: New way of getting Goth-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgs001" <st.9eor9e@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> [thank you for the links.]
>
> >Olthaces (Vərəθragna) = Olcaba = Wod-in- = Ariovistus = Harigasti
>
> Is it a certainty that Harigasti means Ariovistus?

Nothing's certain in this world. But the alternative, that the Germanic Ariovistus, the brother-in-law of king Voccio
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voccio
of Noricum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum
and the Germanic Harigasti, the high priest of the Norici (or Boii, or Taurisci)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60404
should be two different persons with probably the same Germanic name
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66193
would contain too many strange coincidences.

> The "Slovenian" helmet seems to be older and Italic.

Yes, but according to Markey (see link above) used only ceremoniously at the time when it was were deposited (55 - 50 BCE, time mathches beautifully too, with the battle of the Vosges
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vosges_(58_BC)
).

> > The involvement of the first two in the equation is speculative,
> > but I think the last three hold water.
>
> Hm, Odin/Uuodan... "the wet one"?

Maybe you are... No, as I said
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66263
'I think the name Wodan is from *ŋWod-in- where *ŋWod- means "army; hunting party (by water)".'
The -n- suffix is the one found in Gmc. druxti-n-, Latin dominus, tribunus, who are leaders of a *druxt-, domus and tribus, respectively, thus *ŋWodi-n- is a leader of a war party or hunt party, originally by boat.

Cf. the 'WUTESHEER, Wütesheer, Wütenheer, n., "wilde jagd"' in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61870
Note the vacillation between -s- and -n- in the composite form, just as with the supposed Saami words for "world" (Scandinavia)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66254

> >Note the many Odin's 'wild hunt' legends in Germany, which would
> >then be reminiscences of Ariovistus campaign in the old Helvetian
>
> But wasn't that guy too recent (and not too "famous") in order to
> become a supreme deity to all Germanic peoples? (If there had
> been some unknown "profet" 1-2 thousand years earlier in the
> "Ases" lands, some, say, Scythian or Tocharian or "Altaic" one...,
> but Ariovist is almost as recent as Arminius.

And Caesar.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59920
That's because, in my reckoning, the dispersion of the Germanic languages started with the Ariovistus campaign. Proto-Germanic was a language spoken in the Preworsk culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture

> BTW, was Arminius also a NWBlocker? cf. Kuhn-Cherusker-"-sk"-NWB.)

I think so, and so did Kuhn. Not much 'Herman the German' about him, I'm afraid.

> >>AFAIK, Langobards belonged to the Suebian group.
> >
> >Source?
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langobarden
>
> ''Die Langobarden (auch Winniler) waren ein Teilstamm der Sueben,
> eng mit den Semnonen verwandt, und damit ein elbgermanischer
> Stamm, der ursprünglich an der unteren Elbe siedelte.''
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langobarden#Belege
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langobarden#Literatur
> http://www.oeaw.ac.at/gema/lango.htm

The Suevi was a group of peoples, not just a single group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suevi
They were Ariovisyus' people, ie. the people described as Suevi were subordinate to the royal/religious power of Ariovistus and whoever suceeded him in that capacity.

Here is the quote which calls the Langobards Suevi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards
Tacitus:
'Not only the Cheruscans and their confederates... took arms, but the Semnones and Langobards, both Suevian nations, revolted to him from the sovereignty of Marobod... The armies... were stimulated by reasons of their own, the Cheruscans and the Langobards fought for their ancient honor or their newly acquired independence. . . '

> >No, they were Veneti. Both Vandals and Winnili would have been
> >Veneti.
> >Kuhn pointed out several *Wend- names in *western* Germany, where
> >they weren't supposed to be (approx Niedersachsen
>
> But isnt' Veneti a "Gummibegriff" as well? Some were Kelts, others
> were perhaps Illyrians, and those more recent Wenden/Wünschen
> are all of slavic origin (from Eastern provinces of the Holy Roman
> Empire of German Nation). (cf. the famous Austrian noble clan
> Windisch-Graetz from Slovenj Gradec)

Some Veneti became Slavicised, but kept their old name in German (and Danish). No, I don't it is.

>
> On the other hand, Lübeck and Markt-Redwitz are also Slavic
> toponyms, and they aren't in Pommerania, Saxonia, Boemia,
> Burgenland or Carinthia. :-)

Wagria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagria
was once Slavic land.

> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niedersachsen
> >and Westphalia
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalia
>
> Dat weess ik (zumal als Bundesbürger :)).
>
> >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65307
>
> Hehe, a further group of "Walachians". (But, anyway, Welschen
> are usually people speaking a Romance language, "walhisk", also
> known as Vaalser, Walser, Walliser, Walchen, Blocher/-en,
> Wallonen etc.)

Kuhn talked of two layers:
1) an old layer of *wend- names, which he identifies with Veneti
2) a more recent one of *walx- names, which he identifies with the Volcae

> >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65697
>
> Today's Lusatians = die Wenden/Winden = die Sorben (in their
> Slavic idiom: serbshtchina; an idiom that - I suppose - can be
> understood by a Pole and by a Czech). Now if they are Slavicized
> Vandals or Veneti, I don't know.

That's the idea. The Lusatian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture
and Urnfield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield
cultures would then have been Venetic-speaking.

> http://www.serbske-nowiny.de/
>
> George
>
> PS: Olcaba looks like a genuine Cuman and Petcheneg name
> (with the typical -aba/-oba/-opa suffix). Those Turkic groups
> also had Scythian ancestry (Cumans were called Kyptchaks,
> i.e. "red Scythians", Middle Iranian kip "red; southern" &
> chak "Saka" = Scythian). Was Olcaba/Olthaces a local (Adjar?)
> guy or one of Sarmatian extraction?

Plutarch calls the would-be assassin Olthacus, a Dandarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandarii
prince
http://tinyurl.com/25yqmos
Appian calls him Olcaba, a Scythian
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_mithridatic_16.html §79
and says that Olthaces, chief of the Colchians,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis
was led in Pompey's triumph
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_mithridatic_24.html §117
The name Olthacus/Olthaces looks like it might have been derived from Vərəθragna
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48664
eg. the Saka Orþagne:s and Os^laGno (< *OLagn-/*Otlagn- ?)

The funny thing is that the alleged assassination attempt took place fourteen years before Ariovistus told Caesar that his troops had been without roof for fourteen years.
http://classics.mit.edu/Caesar/gallic.1.1.html ch. 36


Torsten