From: Torsten
Message: 65847
Date: 2010-02-12
>Okay.
> > > > What's the official story of the nominative -s of kuningas
> > >
> > > It's borrowed from Germanic *kunniNga-z and the final -s is not
> > > a nom. marker in Finnish.
> >
> > You left out lammas, which is a neuter, of obscure origin, in
> > Germanic, thus without nom. -s, but an s-stem, and which inflects
> > to the same pattern as kuningas, that of the vieras declension:
>
> The suffix -as develop'd to a sort of "loanword suffix" in Finnic,
> and later to a general diminutiv; Livonian is particularly fond of
> it.
>Or from IE -k-, Germanic -g-.
> > which has, according to Wiktionary, 517 members in Finnish, the
> > first 200 here:
> > http://tinyurl.com/yzvfnxy
> >
> >
> > What's going on here? They can't all be loans, all 517 of them,
> > or?
>
> Most of those are recent formations utilizing the adjectival suffix
> -kas, derived from the Uralic diminutiv -kka by addition of -(a)s
> (or perhaps extracted from words such as _hurskas_, _rikas_.)
> A few have a similar -lias, -las.Interesting that it's plural, considering the *wang- "sidepiece" etc discussion.
> Weeding those out, we indeed have mostly loans (Gmc reconstructions
> not mine):
>
> hansikas <~ Swedish handske
> tikkaat <~ tika-puut < Old Swedish stige
> tyyris < ONo dýrWhat vowel was that?
> verstas <~ Swedish verkstad
> ---
> allas < Gmc *aldoon
> altis < Gmc *alTijaz
> harras < Gmc *hardaz
> hauras < Gmc *sauraz
> hurskas < Gmc *xurskaz
> kallis ~ Gmc? Low German hall 'dry'
> kangas < Gmc *gangaz
> kaplas < Gmc *kablaz (also: kapula)
> karvas < Gmc *xarwaz
> katras ~ Gmc? 'gather' etc.
> kaunis < Gmc *skauniz
> kauris < Gmc *xafraz
> kuningas < Gmc *kuningaz
> keidas < Gmc *skaidaz
> keihäs < Gmc *gaizaz
> lammas < Gmc *lambaz
> mallas < Gmc *maltaz
> paljas ~ Gmc? *failjaz > Ger. feil (bad semantics)
> parras < Gmc *bardaz
> patsas ~ Gmc *bandsaz, or hypoth. *badjaz
> porras < Gmc *bordaz
> raavas < Gmc *Trawwaz
> rahvas < variant of the prev.
> rakas < Gmc *frakaz
> reipas < Gmc *reifaz
> rengas < Gmc *xrengaz
> rikas < Gmc *riikja-
> ruhtinas < Gmc *druxtinaz
> ruumis ~ Gmc *skruma ?
> ryväs ~ Gmc *drufa- ? (cf. newer rypäle)
> rypäs < var. of the prev.
> räystäs < Gmc *xrausta- (or rather, from a later Scand. form)
> sairas < Gmc *sairaz
> tehdas < Gmc *stixtaz (or older IE)
> teuras < Gmc *Teuraz, *steuraz
> tiivis < Gmc *stiifaz
> valas < Gmc *xwalaz
> valtias < valta < Gmc *walda
> vannas < Gmc *wanduz
> vantus < Scand. *wantuz
> varas < Gmc *wargaz
> varras < Gmc *wardaz
> (or derived in F. from U. *warti, which may be < IE)
> vauras < Gmc *wabraz
> viisas < Gmc *wiisaz
> äyräs < Gmc *aaferaz (or *auraz)
> ---
> ankerias < Baltic *angurjas
> ansas < Baltic *ansVs
> hammas < Baltic *Zambas
> hirvas < Baltic *Sirvis
> irstas ~ Baltic *irta- "loose"?
> karsas < Baltic, cf. Li. skẽrsas
> kiivas < Baltic, cf. Li. gývasLet me guess: some of them have a distribution outside the IE area. Would you mind telling me which ones?
> kirves < Baltic *kirvis
> kitsas ~ Baltic? Li. gídis (or ~ onomatopoetic kitise-?)
> oinas < Baltic, cf. Li. ãvinas
> rastas < Baltic, cf. La. strazds
> ratas < Baltic *ratas
> ruis < Baltic *rugiz
> seiväs < Baltic, cf. Li. stíebas
> tuulas < Baltic, cf. La. du~lis
> vehmas < Baltic, cf. Li. ves^ùmas
> äes < Baltic, cf. La. ece:s^as
> ---
> ies < considered Slavic; clearly IE anyway ("yoke")
> piiras < alt. of common Finnic piirakka < Russian
> saapas < alt. of common Finnic *saappaka < Russian
> tahdas < considered Slavic (~ tahna, tahma)
> ---
> eväs < pre-Baltic *jevos?
> marras < PIA *mrtas (or therearound)
> messias < Latin (late, inflection affected by the -a-)
> naaras < II? ~ Sansk. na:ri:
> porsas < PIE or pre-IA (also in Mordvinic, Permic)
> puhdas < PIE *puHtos?? (common Finnic)
> taivas < PIA *daivas
> (if not Gmc *teiwaz + semantic shift to "sky") (common Finnic)
> ---
> kinnas < ?? (Latvian cimds < Livonian)
> kirkas < ?? (~ kirku- "to scream")
> kunnas < ?? (~ kunnar)
> oas < ?? (common Finnic, ~ oka)
> pensas < ?? (common Finnic, also Samic)
> pylväs < ?? (common Finnic *pylvä)
> runsas < ??
> sees < ??
> uljas < ??
> uuras < ?? (~ uuttera, Estonian udris)
> valmis < ??
> valpas < ?? (immediately from < valvoa)
> varvas < ?? (Common Finnic *varpa)
> ---
> köngäs < Samic *keawNés
> ---
> From Uralic roots:
> (generally diminutiv variants particular to Finnish)
> eräs < erä (also in Karelian & Veps)
> kalvas < kalpea
> kiuas < kivi-kasa
> koiras < koira
> kärkäs < kärki
> lipas < lippa (also in K&V)
> lounas < louna
> mätäs < *mäktä (common Finnic)
> nauris < *nakra (common Finnic)
> olas < olka
> opas < backformation from opasta- < oppi
> oras < ora (common Finnic, Liv. voruuks)
> paras < para (possibly < IE, but no original -s in Uralic)
> puras < pura (alt. of purasin)
> saalis < saada (common Finnic)
> sitkas < sitkeä
> tupas < tuppo
> typäs < alt. of prev.
> töyräs < contamin. of äyräs + törmä
> uros < uro
> vieras < vieri (common Finnic)
> ylväs < ylpeä < ylä
> ---
> (not in my etymol. dictonary)
> havas
> kalkas (probably onomatop. + -kas)
> kaskas
> kuhilas
> kynnäs (looks like a suffix alternant of kynnys "threshold")
> laupias (~ laupea)
> pallas (usually inflects as -kse-)
> rietas (~ riehua, rivo)
> rynnäs (from rinta + affectiv labialization?)
> turilas
>
> A large number of the Germanic ones have limited distribution
> (generally only North Finnic, or Finnish proper), so even if they
> have a non-IE origin in Gmc, I'd bet Finnish got them from Gmc
> anyway. Exceptions with wider distribution: hauras, kangas, karvas,
> kaunis, kauris, kuningas, paljas, parras, patsas, rengas, rikas,
> ryväs, ryväs, teuras, äyräs.
> I'll cut it here. Happy analyzing!Well thank you! Would you mind adding translations to both sides of the equations? It would be very helpful. And it would be nice if you marked cases of 'double citizenship' (Germanic/Baltic/Straight Finnic/FP/Uralic) too.
> > And what's the deal with the 'literary genitive plural formWell, you deleted my proposal that a frequently used case was taken as a new stem.
> > kuningasten' which keeps the -s suffix?
> > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kuningas
>
> That's because the -s is historically present in all forms of the
> paradigm:
> kuningas : kuningas-en : kuningas-et : kuningas-et-en
>
> Lenition s > h > 0 medially in unstress'd syllables is regular. So
> certainly not a Finnic nominativ marker!
>
> > BTW, since the IE m.nom.sg *-s and the IE s-stem *-s- seem to
> > have the same reflection in Finnish, are they somehow related in
> IE,
>
> Why should that be?
> They've the same reflection in Finnish because of the phoneticalWhy should that be? Phonetical similarity of what? But the problem is here that this s-stem *-s# in the nominative must be earlier than PGmc, in which we can't reconstruct any trace of it.
> similarity.