Re: Ariovistus' home base

--- On Thu, 1/21/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:




--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> We don't know where Ariovistus' "home base" was. As usual you go
> way beyond the available evidence.

I'm in good company, it seems.

****GK: "Me, myself, and I"? *****

> --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
>
> > > I prefer the hypothesis that he was slain somewhere on the
> > > road, along with many other Suebi.
> >
> > On the road to ...?
> >
> > GK: The old home, along with other Suebi.
> >
> > > Since he likely kept his shield (cf. Tacitus G,6) and "fled to
> > > fight another day" his own Suebi wouldn't have killed him.
> >
>
> Apropos Ariovistus' old home: it's the so called Gubin group,
> http://tinyurl. com/ylltf43
>
> GK: We don't know that. It could very well have been further
> West in classical Yastorfia.

The Gubin group disappears at that time. No Jastorf group does that.

*****GK: So where does it say that Ariovistus' Suebi had to originate from a group which disappeared?*****

> as implied here
> http://tinyurl. com/yecxx2y
> http://tinyurl. com/mr42x3
>
> GK: Nothing is implied that decisively connects with
> Ariovistus.

Nothing is implied which might connect this major event to anything else.

****GK: The Suebian westward march, which continued after Ariovistus.*****

> Some of these may have been part of his army, others may have left
> a little later.

We have contemporaneous Przeworsk traces of the Ariovistus expedition

*****GK: We don't know that they are "contemporaneous". These traces could have been left a few years later.*****

in the Wetterau valley. We have no other Przeworsk traces outside of Przeworsk.

> since it seems to have originated as a Przeworsk-influence d Jastorf
> culture, according to
> http://tinyurl. com/ycug82p
> (note the common origin with the Moldavian Poienes.ti-Lukas^ evka
> culture)
> http://tinyurl. com/yex37qb
> http://tinyurl. com/yhacxmx

*****GK: Poeneshti-Lukashovka begins in the 3rd c. BCE*****
>
>
>
> so there wouldn't be much to come home to, everything was deserted
> (cf the exodus of the Helvetii) and the land taken by someone else
> http://tinyurl. com/yfg4nhz
>
> GK: As mentioned, there is no firm proof that the complete
> depopulation had occurred by 58 BCE rather than a few years later.
> Also: the depopulated areas were not repopulated until some two
> centuries later. The "land taken by someone else" is more of your
> usual misinformation.

Alright, here is the quote:
'From the beginning of the new era until 140 AD two local groups existed in northwest Poland. The Gustow group (named after Gustow on Rügen) people lived in the area settled in the past by the Oder group, and south of there, by the middle section of the Oder River was the Lubusz group, in the area previously inhabited by the Gubin group. '

50 years later then. Or do you have other information?

****GK:"At the time of the Suebi tribal confederation led by Ariovistus arrival in Gaul, a rapid decrease of settlement density can be observed in the areas of the upper and middle Oder River basin. In fact the Gubin group of the Jastorf culture disappeared then entirely, which may indicate this group's identity with one of the Suebi tribes. The western regions of the Przeworsk culture were also vacated (Lower Silesia, Lubusz Land and western Greater Poland), which is where the tribes accompanying the Suebi tribes must have come from. Burial sites and artifacts characteristic of the Przeworsk culture have been found in Saxony, Thuringia and Hesse, on the route of the Suebi offensive. The above mentioned regions of western Poland had not become repopulated and economically developed again until in 2nd century AD.[22]"****
(same source)