From: Torsten
Message: 65626
Date: 2010-01-12
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:We can leave -l/-n alternation out of consideration as a diagnostic, but we still have the association with the -et- collective suffix, otherwise most connected with tree and plant names of dubious ancestry, cf Udolph
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@> wrote:
> > > > At 9:19:31 PM on Thursday, January 7, 2010, dgkilday57
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>> In <himilizzi> usw. the Gmc. suffix *-itja apparently
> > > > >>> functions as a collective, parallel to its use in OE
> > > > >>> <Elmet> 'Elmwood' (cf. Kluge, Nom. Stammb. 2. Aufl. 36).
> > > >
> > > > I meant to address this before. My understanding is that
> > > > the OE name is borrowed from Brit. *Elmet- (whence <Elfed>,
> > > > the name of a cantref in Dyfed), and that Hamp at some point
> > > > suggested that a Brit. *lim(-e:ton) 'elm-grove' might be
> > > > involved.
> > >
> > > All right, that works well, and explains the isolation of
> > > <Elmet>, which thus cannot be used as a parallel to <himilizzi>.
> >
> > Unless of course you accept that *himil- etc is not Germanic.
>
> But if not Germanic, then what? It would have had to be borrowed
> before Grimm's Law as *kemil- or whatever, and that gives no
> advantage that I can see over assuming a derivative of inherited
> *k^em-, regardless of the difficulty in finding exact morphological
> parallels for the whole set of words. I am not ruling out the
> possibility of a loan, but mere l/n-suffix-alternation does not
> raise a red flag. In fact, by chance I ran across two Gmc.
> examples of -n > -l in loanwords: OHG <kumil> beside <kumin> from
> Lat. <cuminum> 'cumin', and Westf. <laemmel> from Lat. <lamina>
> 'layer'. But all these illustrate is that the suffix-alternation
> in inherited words was sufficiently common to be generalized. They
> do not make such an alternation diagnostic of loanwords.