Re: *ka/unt- etc, new conquests

From: Torsten
Message: 65461
Date: 2009-11-23

>
> > And we certainly shouldn't forget the most typical of all, those
> > from the whole *ka/unt- etc complex: Eng. hunt with original /u/
> > vs. Gothic hinþan, Sw hinna which are reorganized as a class III
> > strong verb.
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62525
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62572
>
> Re the Estonian comitative suffix -ga, did I mention the Latin
> postposition (with pronouns) -cum "with"?
>
> Which reminds me
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/6791
>
> Note Engl. and, German und; a/u alternation; form *(h)a/und-?
>
> As for the high decades in Gothic and OE: In some Gmc languages the
> ones are before the tens: German 'ein und siebzig' etc, in others
> it's the other way round: 'seventy one', or it might have been
> 'seventy and one'.
>
> There's your 'hund': someone left it on when there are zero ones.
>
> The 'hund' might as well be interpreted here as a comitative suffix
> as the word "and", or perhaps the historical development was just
> that: "crowd, war/hunting party" -> comitative suffix -> "and".
>
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65061
> And now a quote:
> Lehmann: A Gothic Etymological Dictionary
> 'Þ61. þusundi cardinal number f io: Neh 7.34, pl þusundjos Mk 5.13
> khílioi, thousand; þusundi-faþs m i khilíarkhos officer, leader of
> a thousand, only nom sg J 18.12 and dat pl þusundifadaim Mk 6.21.
> Cf suffix in bruþfaþs. Use of suffix in hunda-faþs, þusundi-faþs,
> and *swnagoga-faþs, independent, not loan translation, despite
> similarity of formation; Iran þata-pati, Arm hariwra-pet centurion;
> Iran *hazahra-pati, Arm hazara-pet leader of a thousand; Arm
> z^ol/ovrda-pet ruler of the synagogue Benveniste 1963 BSLP 58:
> [art] 41ff,54-57.'
>
> Until I read Benveniste's article, I think I'll remain skeptical of
> the idea the Gothic is not a loan translation.
>
> Koryakova, Epimakhov
> The Urals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages
> pp. 213-214
> 'Social Organizations of Eurasian Nomads
> ...
> The military-potestal relations were in competence with the
> organization, usually called a "tribe." The tribe regulated contact
> with other tribes, to resolve political and military problems. The
> tribe could be of dual (left and right "wings") or triple (left and
> right wings plus a center), and was militarily organized by the
> decimal structure (i.e., units of thousands, hundred, and tens with
> a hierarchy of leaders) 4) (Taskin 1989). In peacetime, the
> dispersed character of the nomadic society did not require a great
> central power thus the power of the chiefs was not very
> significant, but in wartime, a central power was necessary. The
> amazing ability of nomads to create large armies in case of
> military danger or political contests is well known. A leader's
> personality should not be underestimated in the process of
> sociopolitical consolidation of nomadic societies. The history of
> the Hsiung-nu tribes is a good example. Cribb (1991: 55) stresses
> the territorial aspect of a tribe: "The tribe constitutes the
> operational unit through which units of population are matched to
> units of territory."
> '
>
> Like I said ;-)
> The "wing" aspect of *ka/unt-, the "people/tribe" aspect of it, the
> decimal system (of Germanic) intertwined with it.
Cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64957

I left out a note to the above quote, which I shouldn't have, I discover, since it's relevant:
'4) The first historical evidence about such a system relates to the Hsiung-nu - nomadic tribes that occupied the Mongolian and Trans-Baikal steppes from the third to the first centuries BC. Their empire was divided into three parts: center, left wing, and right wing. They were commanded by highest chief (the Shan-yu) and his closest relatives; in particular, the left wing was commanded by elder sun of the Shan-yu — the heir to the throne. Shan-yu had supreme power. The next level in the Hsiung-nu hierarchy was occupied by the tribal chiefs and elders. The army was based on the decimal principle: it was divided into "thousands," which were headed by tribal chiefs. "Thousands" were divided into "hundreds," and "tens," which were commanded by clan leaders of different ranks. The systems of military and civil hierarchy existed in parallel (Kradin 2001). The same system was recorded for the Mongolian society.'


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsiung-nu
(BTW I'm a Yeniseian believer)
It would appear from that article that the military decimal system was a novelty under Modu Chanyu for the Hsiung-nu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modu_Chanyu

And there I suddenly stumbled over this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumen
Wow
Seems I better get a Turkic etymological dictionary
Digression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyumen
Main thread, important;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization

So, "thousand" id perhaps *tums-kant- > *þuNs-hant-?
Perhaps the '+- k- words' are part of that language too?

> Also, if this was the primary use of *pot- "master", the unstressed
> position explains the root /o/.

Cf.
Etymologisches Wörterbuch der griechischen Sprache

'des-póte:s Gebieter, eigl. Haus-herr —
ab. déñg pato:is., ai. pátir dán, dámpatis. Herr des Hauses, Dual dámpati: Mann und Frau :
des- aus idg. *dems — ai. dán, ab. déñg ist Gen. zum Nom.
do:~, do:~ma = dómos Haus, s. d.
Ai. dam.patis. zeigt den reinen Stamm in der Komposition.
Dazu despózo: gebieten. S. d. vorige.
Ähnliche Bildungen, aber im ersten Teil verschieden, sind
ai. já:spatis eigl. Herr der Familie (já:s Nachkomme,
g^ene- in gígnomai),
ksl. gospodI Herr,
lat. hospes (*hosti-potis) Gastfreund.
— Vgl. Bartholomae Ar. Forschgn. I, 70 f., IF. 3, 100f. O. Richter KZ. 36, 111 ff., wo weitere Literatur.
Vgl. dámar und dápedon.'

with exactly the genitive -s Douglas would like to see,
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65457
which makes one wonder how that tumen 'army' is related to IE dom- "household etc", Norse dom-r "verdict"
de Vries
'dómr m. 'urteil, gericht',
nisl. fär. dómur, nnorw schw da. dom.
— > finn. tuomio, lp. N. duobmo (Thomsen 2, 224).
— got. do:ms, ae. afr. as. do:m, ahd. tuom.'
cf ibd.
'eindoemi 'selbstbestimmungsrecht',
German -tum in Fürstentum etc.

Cf.
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/dmpd.html


> At least we now know what kind of society the *ka/unt- root is
> from. Now why did Celts etc also use that organization (Tricassi
> etc)?
>


Torsten