From: Torsten
Message: 65315
Date: 2009-10-28
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:More likely, in my opinion, *drenk- originally meant "get soaked, waterlogged, filled with water" (cf. 'drown') and was related somehow (dialectically?) to the *d/tran,W- "dregs"/"draw"/"drag" etc water transport word complex.
> >
> >
> > Regarding the putative connection between Old English <hentan>,
> > <huntian> and Gothic <fra-hinþan> etc., the OED (s.v. <hunt>)
> > refers the reader to A.S. Napier, "Old English Notes" (MQLL
> > 1:130-131, 1898):
> >
> > "... That O.E. <huntian>, 'to hunt,' is related to the Gothic
> > <hinþan>, 'to seize, take prisoner' (cp. also G. <hunþs>,
> > 'captivity,' O.E. <hu:þ> 'booty,' etc.) is the generally accepted
> > view. An Indogermanic <t>, of which the <þ> in <hinþan> is the
> > regular Germanic representative, could, under certain conditions,
> > especially when next to a nasal, become Indog. <d>, as in Lat.
> > <mendax> beside <mentiri> (cp. Brugmann, Gdr., 2nd Ed. I. sec.
> > 701, and Anm. d). This Indog. <d> yielded the Germanic <t> which
> > we have in <huntian>. In the same way has arisen the <t> in O.E.
> > <hentan>, 'to seize, pursue' (= *<hantjan>), which is, though, so
> > far as I am aware, it has not been pointed out before, the
> > causative verb belonging to the same strong verb <hinþan>.
> > Similarly from the Indog. root *<mn.t> (cp. Lat. <mens>,
> > <mentis>) come both O.E. <gemynd> (N.E. <mind>) and O.E.
> > <myntan>, 'to think, intend.' ..."
> >
> > Now, firstly, the etymological connection between Latin <mendax>
> > 'lying' and <menti:ri:> 'to lie' should be rejected. The former
> > is instead derivable from <mendum>, <menda> 'defect, fault,
> > blemish', which explains its inanimate usage. Horace uses
> > <mendax> to describe a farm which has produced less than the
> > expected crop. The defect, or <mendum>, is not immediately
> > apparent but shows up after the growing season. Similarly, the
> > mendacity of a speaker is not immediately apparent but shows up
> > after his statements are compared with the facts. Thus the
> > resemblance is merely fortuitous between <mendax> and
> > <menti:ri:>, the latter originally 'to fabricate in one's mind'
> > and indeed derived from Indo-European *mn.tí- along with Lat.
> > <mens> 'mind', Sanskrit <matí-> 'understanding, reason', and Gmc.
> > *(ga-)mundi- 'memory, mind', OE <gemynd>.
> >
> > Secondly, the ad-hoc voicing of an IE tenuis, next to a nasal or
> > otherwise, under poorly understood "certain" conditions, although
> > endorsed by Osthoff, Brugmann, Kluge, and others, is an
> > unsatisfactory explanatory mechanism. "Wir haben es eben mit den
> > letzten ausläufern einer altidg. regel zu tun, welche auch im
> > germ. ihre spuren hinterlassen hat." Thus Kluge (PBB 9:181,
> > 1884) sweeps the problem under the rug of antiquity. In an
> > earlier posting (#64987) I argued that IE *deik^- 'to show' does
> > not require a variant *deig^-, since <digitus> can be derived
> > within Latin without recourse to *deik^- at all, and *taik-
> > beside *taih- can be explained by regular processes within
> > Germanic. With OE <hentan> and <huntian>, as well as <myntan>,
> > we have only Gmc. forms to explain and we should make no recourse
> > to ad-hoc voicing at an earlier time-depth.
> >
> > Thirdly, OE <hentan>, despite its protoform *hantjan, cannot be
> > the causative of <hinþan> (or as tacitly assumed by Napier, a
> > parallel strong verb *hintan reflecting IE */d/, voiced under
> > those elusive "certain" conditions). If the sense of the latter
> > is 'to seize, take prisoner' or as I have argued elsewhere 'to
> > incite, urge into motion, chase', then <hentan> should be a
> > transitive verb meaning 'to cause (someone) to seize or chase',
> > just as <drencan> (from *drankjan) means 'to cause (someone) to
> > drink', hence 'to drench (someone)'.
> > But <hentan> is intransitive and uses a preposition or takes theYes, but ... Here are some data:
> > genitive of the object of pursuit.
> >
> > To clear up these problems we may begin with OE <myntan> 'to
> > think, intend', reflecting *muntjan 'to form an idea' vel sim.,
> > from a neuter(?) thematic noun *munta- 'idea, concept' vel sim.
> > Rather than connecting directly with IE *mn.tí- we may consider
> > the root *mendH- 'to learn' (e.g. Greek <mantháno:> 'I learn',
> > with nasally extended zero-grade present; the aorist <émathon> is
> > regular). The neuter zero-grade passive *mn.dH-nó- 'thing
> > learned' would become regularly Gmc. *muntta- by Kluge's Law. In
> > this position geminates were simplified in most West Gmc.
> > dialects including OE, but not Old High Alamannic. Swiss German
> > has [an,kx@] 'butter' requiring OHA *anccho (from *ankkan-)
> > beside Old High German <ancho>, Middle HG <anke> (*ankan-);
> > likewise SwG [lun,k@] 'lung' from OHA *lunggun beside OHG
> > <lungun>, OE <lungen> (examples from Kauffmann, PBB 12:521,524,
> > 1887). This reduces *muntta- to *munta- and gives us OE <myntan>
> > regularly from *mendH-.
> >
> > Similarly, OE <(ge)hentan> 'to pursue, grasp, seize' (intr.
> > w/gen. or prep.) can be referred not to a causative but a
> > factitive, *hantjan 'to make a pursuit, give chase', from a
> > strong feminine *hanto:- 'act of incitation, chase, pursuit',
> > Gmc. *hantto:-, from the abstract *k^ont-ná:- 'incitation', from
> > *k^ent- 'to incite'.
> > As explained elsewhere, I believe Gmc. *hunDa- 'hound' comes from
> > the same IE root, being a zero-grade animate *k^n.t-ó-
> > 'facilitator of incitation, means by which prey is chased'.
> >
> > Finally, OE <huntian> 'to hunt', earlier *hunto:jan, is based on
> > the weak agent-noun <huntan-> 'hunter, hunting spider' (i.e. one
> > which pursues prey rather than ambushing it in a web). And OE
> > <huntan-> in my view represents Gmc. *hunttan- from IE
> > *k^n.t-nón- 'inciter, chaser'. Thus, both 'hent' and 'hunt' can
> > be brought together with 'hound', and no ad-hoc voicing
> > shenanigans are necessary.
> >
> > As for the nouns mentioned by Napier (and elsewhere by Torsten),
> > OE <hu:þ> and OHG <hunda> (the latter glossed <praeda>, usually
> > rendered 'booty') can be referred to a Gmc. st. fem. *hunþo:-,
> > from a zero-grade paroxytone *k^n.´ta:- 'that which is incited or
> > chased', i.e. 'prey'. The formation is parallel to Greek <díke:>
> > 'way, custom, lawful right', originally 'that which is pointed
> > out', from *deik^-. Latin <praeda> can also mean 'prey' ("cervi
> > luporum praeda rapacium", Hor.) and another OHG gloss <herihunda>
> > 'army-prey', i.e. 'booty' makes clear the military metaphor. The
> > Gothic st. masc. by-form <hunþs> is attested only as the acc. sg.
> > <hunþa> (Eph. 4:8), rendering Greek <aikhmalo:sían> 'captivity'
> > (in this passage 'body of captives' would make no sense). As we
> > have seen, Paul likes metaphors based on <aikhmé:> 'spear-point,
> > spear', and Ulfilas likes to render them with derivatives of
> > <hinþan>. The literal sense of Goth. <hunþs> was probably
> > something like 'result of chasing', possibly with the implication
> > of spears, if indeed there was a noun *hinþra- or *hinþan- in the
> > sense of <aikhmé:>, as suggested earlier.
> >
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andythewiros" <anjarrette@...> wrote:
>
> All of the [above] seems pretty brilliant to me. Andrew
>
I am duly impressed too. It would be interesting to see something similar done to the various Uralic cognates of the *kom-t- thing.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62535
Figuring out the vagaries of that gloss in important especially since that word seems so central to the whole military/ethnic organization of western Europe too.
Would it interest you to take a look at the hide/-hythe dichotomy in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59612
(the non-functional tinyurl address was intended to refer to the file section file Maps from Udolph -> 44 hude.jpg)?
There is more stuff if you follow the back links; this one in particular
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46126
I think has to do with the *kom- part (*kan,W- with morphophonetic alternations?).
Torsten