>
> contemporary historical, archaeological and philological analysis
> helps us to discern within this Teutonic territory another
> population, neither German nor Celtic but intermediate between the
> two, a third group, whose language has not survived to our
> times.112 This group could have occupied an area extending
> southwards to the mid-German plateau on the right bank of the
> Rhine, northwards to the river Ruhr and in parts even to the river
> Lippe, eastwards to the river Leine. This people was strongly
> celticised, and was at the same level of development as the Celts
> in the oppida. They also constructed fortified semi-towns, used the
> pottery wheel, were metal workers (a manufacturing centre has been
> discovered in the Siegerland locale), manufactured iron weapons (a
> cache of which has been found), and minted coins. Their burials
> recall those of the Jastorfers, consisting of urns containing
> calcified bones cleared of funeral pyre debris, although the
> ceramics are quite distinctive. The Romans of Caesar's and
> subsequent times, during the expeditions of Drusus and Tiberius,
> called them Germanics. But this territory contains a concentration
> of toponyms which can not be interpreted in terms of either German
> or Celtic languages. An intermediate people indeed, neither German
> nor Celtic!
>
> ****GK: One question comes to mind. I forget whether the term for
> "foreigner" based on the Celtic Volcae appears anywhere in this
> intermediate area.****
There's an interesting answer to that.
Hans Kuhn
Vor- und frühgermanische Ortsnamen in Norddeutschland und den Niederlanden
German text here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/47751
"The suffix most fruitful for my purpose is -st-, inasmuch as it is preceded and succeeded by a vowel (eg Bilisti Segaste Tiuguste). It is distributed over large parts of Europe, especially the southern part and much discussed in the last decades, as it seemed possible to link it up with certain peoples or migrations. Its occurrence in North West Germany in connection with that is mentioned, if at all, then only in passing, although Ernst Förstemann already almost 200 years ago was aware of it (Die deutschen Ortsnamen, 1863, 251). Förstemann mentions there ia. Seguste, which in itself already certifies the connection with Southern Europe. This since in the extended Mediterranean space we know of 3 old Segesta's (in Veneto, Liguria and Sicily), further 2 Segestica (in Croatia and Spain), 1 Segustero (in Southern France, with the tribal name Segesteri), and finally in Asia Minor the tribal name Segestani. Pliny alone mentions all 3 Segesta and 1 Segestica. There were probably once more. Also in our country is the mentioned Seguste (now Segeste, s. Hildesheim) not alone. A second (now Seeste) is situated not far from Osnabrück, further probably a third (Zeist) at Utrecht and perhaps even a fourth at Krefeld (Kierst, Langst and Nierst). And then the well-known Cheruscan male name Segestes."
[Denmark: Seest, 1428 Seest, Anst herred, at Kolding]
...
I now bring the material, first the certain cases, then the probable. The Belgian ones I leave out until later.
Aalst, NW s'Hertogenbosch, Betuwe, old Halosta Alisti Alaste,
Alistos, documented by Ptolemäus for North Germany, but hardly one of the known Aalst, Alost, Alst and Elst,
Alst, to Albersloh, SE Münster, old Alest; situated on Alster Bach, with the manor Schulte zur Alst, and is likely the original name of the stream,
Apfelstädt, tributary of the Gera in Thuringia, with the village Apfelstädt; old forms Aplast Apflosta Affolesto Apfilste etc,
Bilisti, disappeared around Paderborn,
Börnste, to Dülmen, old Buristene Burinstene Burnesthe etc,
Burdist, stream at Remagen, mentioned 755,
Eckst, E Assen, Drente, old Exte Eegeste etc,
Eexta, E Groningen, old Eghiste Exta Ext, often with article an der Ext and the like, probably also old hydronym,
Ehrsten, NW Kassel, old Heristi, Herste, since around 1100 Erste and the like,
Elst, N Nijmegen, Betuwe, old Alisti Elisti etc, at a prehistorical arm of the Rhine,
Elvliste, probably = Elverdissen, S Herford, written Elffliste Elflisten,
Ennest, at Attendorn, old Erntest, Welschen-Ennest, E Olpe, old Ennest,
Ergste, s. Schwerte, old Argeste Ergiste Ergeste,
Exten, at Rinteln, oldest writing Achrista; at first probably name of the passing Exter,
Faristina Farstina, a right tributary of the Weser or an arm of the Weser below Verden (Adam of Bremen),
Gersten, ENE Lingen a. d. Ems, old Giureston Gerustan,
Harste, stream and village, N Göttingen, old Heristi,
Idesten, or Itesten, old field name in Wybelsumer Hammerich, W Emden, written Itestene Ydesten Ydestenna-wey Ytstein,
Idistaviso, near Minden,
Innerste, right tributary of Leine, joining NW Hildesheim, old Inderista Indrista etc,
Lamesten, deserted at Schloà Ricklingen, W Hannover,
Leveste, SW Hannover, old Leueste Leveste,
Mideste, unknown (acc. Fö.2 = Miste, to Winterswijk, Gelderland, that however in the 13th/14th cent. was named Merste),
Pleegst, to Raalte, SE Zwolle, Overijssel, old Plegest Plegeste,
Seeste, NW Osnabrück, old Segest Segesten,
Segeste, S Hildesheim, old Segaste Seguste,
Thüste, ESE Hameln, old Tiuguste Thiuguste,
Trikaste, unknown in Thuringian Altgau, around Sondershausen, written Tricaste Trichasti Tricuste Trichuste,
Villigst, on the Ruhr across from Schwerte, old Vilgeste Viliste,
Werste, at Oeynhausen, old Werste Werreste,
Withuste, unknown in Westphalia, mentioned around 900.
The names of Alistos and Idistaviso (plus Segestes) in antiquity secures an age for the -st- derivation also in our country of at least almost 2000 years. The stem syllables of many names take us even further back. Of the 25 different stems we know 12 also from the Old European river name layer - Alst, Apfelstädt, Eexta, Burdist, Exten, Faristina, Harste and Innerste are themselves hydronyms or provable as such - :
*Ag- (Eekst, Eexta): Agira (the Eger etc),
*Al- (Aalst, Alst usw.) : Ala Alara Alantia Aluta etc,
*Alb(l)- (Elvliste): Albis Albantia etc; even closer stands the Alblas (South Holland) - cf also, not far from there, the Roman Age Albiobola -,
*An(n)- (Ennest) : Anas Anisa (the Enns) Anapos Ennepe etc,
*Apl- (Apfelstädt): Apilas (in Macedonia) Apula (der Apfelbach, to Nahe),
*Arg- (Ergste) : Arga Arguna Argantia etc,
*Har-, IE *Kar- (Ehrste, Harste) : Karantos u. a.,
*Id- (Idesten, Idistaviso): Idasa (the Itz) - cf the Greek or pre-Greek mountain name Ida -,
*In(d)r- (Innerste): Inde (to Rur) - cf the Indus and the God Indra, further the place names Indaras in Spain and Indara on Sicily -,
*Lam- (Lamesten): Lamer (the Lammer, to Salzach) Lamma (the Lamme, to Innerste),
*Seg- (Seeste, Segeste): Segontia Sigina,
*War- (Werste) : Varus Warantia Warina etc
Besides that the stems of Akrista (Exten), Bilisti and Burdist occur also at least in North German and Netherlands river names (Axtbach, to Ems, N Münster, old Acarse, the Bille to Elbe in Hamburg, old Bilina, and the Boorne, Westfriesland, old Bordena)."
And here I begin to address your question:
"Just as Bilisti, Börnste, Ehrsten Harste, Leveste, Trikasti and Werste have correspondences in foreign tribal names, further Segeste Seeste in Segesteri and Segestani, I assume that Villigst (from *Felgist-) is conected with the name Belgae, with f from IE bh, as in Italic and Venetic (and perhaps in Faristina), while this in Bilisti has become b as in Germanic and Celtic."
W. Meid
Hans Kuhns "Nordwestblock" Hypothese, in
Germanenprobleme in heutiger Sicht
"Kuhn has not succeeded in or not cared to set up a coherent phonology for his substrate language; the representation of inlaut vacillates and is in general opaque, and also in anlaut (dialectal?) variants are assumed, thus in IE *bh, which supposedly on one hand is represented as /b/, on the other as /f/, eg in the names Belgae and Villigst which he sees as related.
The borders of the Nordwestblock defined by Kuhn become questionable by the fact that the phenomena he considers characteristic all the same stretch beyond them, as eg in the -st suffix which was widely distributed in the Old European area, and beside in the Southern and Southeastern area occurs in the Nordic, Baltic area. Youger words and names is, as Kuhn himself stresses, carried over the borders and spreads in the reast of Germania. This situation however makes the evidential situation unclear: Are we dealing with a scenario of secondary distribution or did the Germania as such also have such a substrate? Or is it all after all "Germanic"? "
And the answer is (I think):
As I noted before (after various Polish linguists), there is an alternation *w-/*b-, from a rule in 'Northern Venetic' *w- -> *b-, in the roots *wolg and *bolg-
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64012
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60861
To make a long tale short, the NWBlock people might have called the Volcae either *Vilg-,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerte
(Villigst)
or, where Veneti had taken over, *Bill- (Bilisti near Paderborn)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paderborn
This answers Meid's critique of Kuhn's assumed alternating inlaut variants in Bilisti and Villigst
Torsten