Fw: Re: [tied] Re: Frankish origins

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- On Thu, 9/24/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> >
> > --- On Wed, 9/23/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@... s.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@... s.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The presence of Yazygi in Illyricum is noted and assumable
> > > > > > from statements by Eusebius and Lucanus.
> > > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65077
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GK: On second thought, I may have made an incorrect
> > > > > > assumption here about Sarmatian intervention in this war.
> > > > > > I don't know Eusebius' text, and Harmatta does not
> > > > > > reference it. Perhaps the Sarmatians were not part of the
> > > > > > Pannonian army after all and their "subjugation" by
> > > > > > Tiberius a mere p.r. note by some Roman historian.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Here's the locus in the second part of Eusebius' Chronicon:
> > > 7 CE: 'Tiberius Caesar drives back the Dalmatians and
> > > Sarmatians into Roman authority.'
> > > http://rbedrosian. com/jerome_ chronicle_ 03_part2. htm
> >
> > GK: Yes. I found it in Latin (Jerome's translation) : "Tiberius
> > Caesar Dalmatas, Sarmatasque in Romanam redigit potestatem." That
> > sounds firm enough, but is it true? We don't know. It's not
> > confirmed by other sources, and the editors of Eusebius point out
> > that he was wrong on many counts. (Even here actually, he gives
> > the wrong year).

What's wrong with 7 CE?

> > What I'd like to see is an annotated version with some
> > commentaries. Neither Suetonius nor any other sources says this.
> > And the victor title claimed (but not granted) by Tiberius
>
> That's not what Suetonius says.
>
> ****GK: Suetonius does not say Tiberius defeated the Sarmatians in
> Pannonia. In fact he does not say Tiberius defeated tghe Sarmatians
> at all.

Nor does Voltaire. Nor Shakespeare. And?

> He does point out that they raided Moesia in Tiberius' later
> years.****
>
> > was "Pannonicus" not "Sarmaticus" .
>
> Nor "Dalmaticus" .
>
> ****GK: That's one of the things that I find troublesome about
> Eusebius, who certainly knows Pannonians.****

How is that troublesome?

> He was the victor of the Bellum Pannonicum.
>
> > I think old Eusebius was plain wrong (if he indeed wrote this) or
> > else we need to interpret it differently. In any case this does
> > not prove (even to Harmatta BTW) that Sarmatians had colonized
> > Illyria.
>
> Nor to me, for that matter, not to the exclusion of other
> scenarios. But I'll agree with Harmatta that their presence was
> possible.
>
> ****GK: Harmatta argues for a presence north of the Danube from
> Pannonia, not for a presence in Pannonia.****

The Tisza plain is not Pannonia?

> > At the same time, Sarmatians were present in Moesia, according to
> > Cassius Dio, Roman History, 55.29-30:
> >
> >
> > GK: Yes. That too has been known for a long time, but it does
> > nothing for you. Sarmatians had been making raids across the
> > Danube since the late 2nd c. BCE...
>
> And always made sure to get the last ferry home?
>
> ****GK: Except those who were captured and enslaved, or killed.

I don't get that. Who would enforce the Danube as a border before the Romans made it one?

> Same thing would apply to Roman raiders north of the Danube prior
> to the incorporation of Dacia.

???

Torsten