From: dgkilday57
Message: 65100
Date: 2009-09-23
>All right, I don't want to argue metaphors anyway.
> > > > In your extensive citations from the UEW I don't see any
> > > > *kantu-, or anything suggesting *kantu-, in the donor
> > > > language. Whence -u- if not an inherited IE formation?
> > >
> > > But the donor language is not necessarily Uralic, we have to
> > > consider the fact of Yeneseian *k-t- "hunt". On the other hand,
> > > the semantic spread of the root (hunt, hunting lodge, mooring on
> > > side of river) seems to point to water-borne seasonal migration,
> > > which fits with the picture from Proto-Uralic.
> >
> > An appealing picture indeed, but the tail of visual pictures should
> > not be wagging the dog of comparative linguistics.
>
> Wörter mirror Sachen. Your visual pictures is my semantics.
>
>Colored by the difficulty of fitting many of these words, e.g. Lat. <cardo:> 'hinge', into the e/o/zero ablaut paradigm. But further developments in 20th-century IE studies have removed much of the apparent trouble with the /a/. To me it creates much more trouble to assume that Indo-Europeans had a clearly defined "Hochsprache" and "Niedersprache", with the low-brow rabble clumsily uttering /a/ rather than the refined /e/ and /o/ of the upper class.
> > > > I'm working on 'glass', have some old papers to read.
> > > > Regarding the long list of words with gramm. Wechsel, I'll pick
> > > > a few and try to prove they are IE, inherited the usual way.
> > >
> > > Don't forget to explain also why they,
> > > 1) in spite of alternating stress, supposedly of IE origin, show
> > > very little ablaut
> > > 2) why what ablaut there is seems to be a/u
> > > 3) why the root vowels seem to a|i|u, not the expected IE
> > > a(?)|eI|eU
> > > 4) why *kas-an- "hare" has Latin 'mot populaire' cognates, also
> > > with /a/, in Latin cascus and ca(s)nus, as does *laGu- with lacus
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/38063
> >
> > I have argued for years that <lacus> and <mare> are geomorphic
> > loanwords into Latin from a language of the Illyrian type.
> >
> > Meillet's theory of /a/ as a marker for 'mots populaires' is rather
> > outdated.
>
> It was more like an observation, I think.
> > > 5) why derivatives seem to carry stress in *gl-á-s, *xr-ínt- and cause root zero grade, where possibleI recall seeing Gmc. 'frost' connected with Lat. <prui:na> 'id.', and Grk. <krustallos> ktl. suspected of being non-IE. The Frankish thing is localized and late. But I'm only shooting from the hip without looking at the material first.
> > > 6) why the documented pre-Saami *skaid- "division" occurs on the list
> > >
> 7) why *xarða- "Wald, Bergwald" and *xaruxa- : *xaruGa- "Opferstätte, Heiligtum" are on the list which have suspiciously many foreign realtions
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/63992
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64289
> 8) why *frewsa-(?) : *fruza- "Frost" is on the list, they have suspected *xr- > fr- (cf. Gk. kru-, also cf. Frankish *xR- > fR-, eg. *hlank- -> flank)
> 9) why *slaxan- : *slaGan- "Schläger, Mörder" (more like "drench, douse, snuff"), participating in a class VI verbIf you have time, see A. Noreen, "Weiteres zum Vernerschen Gesetze" (PBB 7:431-441). Much of my forthcoming posting on Verner's Law and nouns will be based on this material. He uses many examples from eastern North Gmc. so you should be right at home.
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61680
> is on the list
> > > etc etc. Maybe I'm just being too critical ;-)Right, an actual universal? In Russian, 'sun' is neuter, and Pokorny thinks Lat. <so:l> was earlier *sawele, neuter. And <lu:na>, *louksna:, Avestan <raoxna>, etc., was originally an epithet of the goddess, not the moon itself.
> >
> > No, your points are appreciated. If everyone agreed with me,
> > something would be wrong.
> >
> > > Note also, re your concern wrt. PPGerm *kant-ú- section VII
> > containing 'Die maskulinen u-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel' and
> > 'U-stämmige Adjektiva mit grammatischem Wechsel'. Feminine gender
> > could be imposed on the basis of "hand" f. / "foot" m. found in
> > other IE languages.
> >
> > A real stretch, since 'hand' is masc. in some IE lgs. And note the
> > discrepancy of Frau Sonne, Herr Mond vs. Latin/Greek.
>
> The constant across languages here is the gender dichotomy in hand/foot and sun/moon. If "foot" was already m., "hand" must be made f.
> > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62525Perhaps Piotr will comment. I know far too little about Slavic.
> > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62535
> > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64139
> > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61079
> > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59612
> > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/63465
> > > >
> > > > Mixed bag of memories. I missed the obvious problem the first
> > > > time around with your reading Venetic <ka.n.ta ruma.n[.]na> as
> > > > 'Roman tribe' or whatever.
> > >
> > > More like "(of the) Roman community" vel sim.
> > >
> > > > In <dona.s.to> the first <o> represents /o:/ (cf. Lat.
> > > > <do:na:vit>) so <u> cannot represent /o:/ in the same
> > > > position.
> > >
> > > It doesn't have to. *Ruma is an old and/or by-form of Roma, cf.
> > > Etruscan Ruma, Arabic Rûm, Slavic Rim-.
> >
> > Etr. has no phonemic distinction between /o/ and /u/, and class.
> > Arabic has only /a:/, /i:/, /u:/ for long vowels.
>
> Some Central European language had /u(:)/ (> /ü(:)/) > /i(:)/
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59166
> (Lippe)
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64400
> , seems we can generalize the context to 'between liquid and labio-velar'. We then might have a loan path *Ru:m- > *Ri:m- > Slavic Rim-