From: dgkilday57
Message: 65086
Date: 2009-09-22
>Fine, but in order for your theory to be plausible, you still need a parallel.
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter Schrijver
> > > > > Lost Languages in Northern Europe
> > > > > in: Early Contacts between Uralic and Indo-European
> > > > >
> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > A second example of direct contact between the language of
> > > > > geminates and a branch of Uralic is the Germanic word hand
> > > > > (Gothic handus etc.) < Proto-Germanic *hand-. All attempts at
> > > > > an Indo-European etymology of this word remain unconvincing
> > > > > (see recently Kluge & Seebold 1989:353). Yet if we take
> > > > > Grimm's and Verner's Laws into account, we may reconstruct
> > > > > *hand- as *kant-. This looks strikingly like a cognate of
> > > > > Proto-Finno-Ugric *käti 'hand, arm', but with a nasal infixed
> > > > > into the root. Since this nasalization is not a feature of
> > > > > Finno-Ugric, or of Indo-European (outside the nasal presents,
> > > > > that is), and since it is a feature of the language of
> > > > > geminates, it is reasonable to conclude that Finno-Ugric
> > > > > *käti was borrowed by the language of geminates, from which
> > > > > it subsequently entered Germanic before Verner's Law and
> > > > > Grimm's Law.
> > > >
> > > > I find it hard to believe that Proto-Germans would have
> > > > assigned a loanword lacking final /u/ to the feminine
> > > > /u/-declension, rather than one of the more common paradigms.
> > > > During historical times the Gmc. fem. /u/-decl., never high in
> > > > members, loses ground. Old High German has already brought
> > > > 'hand' into the /i/-decl., although traces of the /u/-decl.
> > > > persist in Old and Middle HG. In Old English, beside <hand>
> > > > only a handful of fem. /u/-stems are in common use. Indeed if
> > > > the substratal protoform was *ka(n)t-, the Proto-Germans must
> > > > have appended a stressed feminine *-ú- in order for Verner's
> > > > Law to yield Gmc. *hanðu-, whence Gothic <handus> and the
> > > > rest. This is not merely implausible, but without parallel.
> > >
> > > Why couldn't it be borrowed into PPGmc. as *kantú-?
> >
> > Why don't loanwords into modern English form plurals like
> > <children>?
>
> Because it's an inflected form. They are generally not borrowed together with the root as separate loans, but derivatives are.
> > > > Identifying substratal loanwords in Germanic requires more thanAn appealing picture indeed, but the tail of visual pictures should not be wagging the dog of comparative linguistics.
> > > > just throwing Grimm's and Verner's Laws at the alleged
> > > > protoforms. The morphology of the attested forms must be
> > > > considered as well. In this case I think that *handu- is an
> > > > inherited Indo-European word of archaic formation.
> > >
> > > How do we know those supposed archaic formation aren't chimeric,
> > > and actually belonging in the donor language? Anyway, that's what
> > > I'll propose.
> >
> > In your extensive citations from the UEW I don't see any *kantu-,
> > or anything suggesting *kantu-, in the donor language. Whence -u-
> > if not an inherited IE formation?
>
> But the donor language is not necessarily Uralic, we have to consider the fact of Yeneseian *k-t- "hunt". On the other hand, the semantic spread of the root (hunt, hunting lodge, mooring on side of river) seems to point to water-borne seasonal migration, which fits with the picture from Proto-Uralic.
> > > > My best guess at a PIE protoform is *kóndHu- 'pincher,As does Hubschmid. That was back when Venetic consonantal phonology was poorly understood. Venetic is more like Latin in its treatment of PIE mediae aspiratae.
> > > > squeezer', from *kendH- 'to pinch, squeeze, compress', in turn
> > > > an enlargement of *ken- 'compact, compressed'. This primary
> > > > adjectival root is Pokorny's *ken-(1) (IEW 558) under which are
> > > > listed mostly nominal extensions of zero-grade *kn-, and some
> > > > words whose IE origin is doubtful (Sanskrit <kanda-> m. 'bulb';
> > > > Greek <kóndos> 'horn, ankle-bone', <kóndulos> 'knuckle').
> > > > Nevertheless the enlargement *kendH- 'to make compact,
> > > > compress, squeeze' has a good parallel in *weidH- 'to make
> > > > apart, divide, separate' from the adjectival root *wei- 'apart,
> > > > disjoint, in two' (mostly in zero-grade *wi-, sometimes dual
> > > > *wi:- < *wih-, IEW 1175, 1127). As a morphological parallel to
> > > > *kóndHu- I regard Greek <kórthus> 'millstone' (Theophrastus) as
> > > > derived from PIE *g^Her- 'short, small, fine-grained'; here the
> > > > adjectival root (Pokorny's *g^Her-(6), IEW 443) is enlarged to
> > > > *g^HerdH- 'to make small, grind' which in turn yields the
> > > > agential *g^HórdHu- 'grinder, millstone', Proto-Greek
> > > > *kHórtHu-, by Grassmann's Law <kórthus>. The same adjectival
> > > > *g^Her- appears in two other archaic IE formations in Greek:
> > > > *g^Hén-g^Hro- 'small-grained material', Greek <kégkhros>
> > > > 'millet; fish-spawn'; *g^H´n.-g^Hru-, Grk. <kákhrus>
> > > > 'winter-bud' (Thphr.), 'parched barley' (Aristophanes). The
> > > > latter's variant <kágkhrus> is probably a cross between these
> > > > forms.
> > >
> > > de Vries:
> > > 'knoka schw. V. 'schlagen, prügeln',
> > > nisl. hnoka 'unruhig sein', nnorw. knoka,
> > > nschw. dial. knåka,
> > > ndä. knuge 'drücken, klemmen'.
> > > mhd. knochen 'knuffen' und
> > > ae. cnocian, cnucian 'schlagen, stossen'.
> > > vgl. knúi und knjúkr.
> > >
> > > usw. usw. usw.
> > >
> > > How can a root that behaves like that be considered IE?
> >
> > I already expressed doubt that everything referred to *ken- by
> > Pokorny is really IE. The 'knoll' word fits poorly semantically,
> > since it means more like 'swelling', and the 'knob' word has a
> > geminated media; I'm willing to concede that many of these are NOT
> > inherited by Gmc. from PIE the usual way. I think 'rye' both with
> > and without -gg- came from an IE lg. of the Illyrian type (sorry,
> > not Venetic)
>
> Not to worry. Pokorny uses the term Veneto-Illyrian.
> > and will say more later; I suspect that both Kuhn's NWBlock lg. andA bona fide theory of Illyro-Lusitanian. I am working to incorporate the Macedonian material.
> > Schrijver's lg. of gemm. are "really" NW Illyrian, with some loans
> > from the West Mediterranean substrate.
>
> Presumably you have bona fide Illyrian onomastics to back that up?
> > > > Verner and several contemporaries regarded 'hand' as connectedI have argued for years that <lacus> and <mare> are geomorphic loanwords into Latin from a language of the Illyrian type.
> > > > with the Gmc. strong verb *henþ- 'to capture' reflected in
> > > > Goth. <frahinþan>, <-hanþ>, <-hunþans> 'id.', Swedish <hinna>
> > > > 'to obtain, reach', Danish dialectal <hinne> 'id.', in which
> > > > case *hanðu- would be the correct Gmc. form and my explanation
> > > > would fail. More recently however Seebold saw "keine sichere
> > > > Vergleichsmöglichkeit" between 'hand' and *henþ-. Such a
> > > > connection would require an oxytone /o/-grade agent, PIE
> > > > *kontú- 'catcher', to be formed from *kent-, then inherited
> > > > into Gmc. in the sense 'hand'. This is, in my opinion, more
> > > > difficult to justify morphologically and semantically than what
> > > > I proposed above.
> > >
> > > Actually I considered connecting them, but outside IE, in the
> > > donor language, whichever that is.
> > >
> > > Note that those Germanic nouns for which alternations show the
> > > effect of Verner, smell funny too:
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62159
> > > which might lead one to believe that PPGmc had no mobile stress
> > > in nouns, only in verbs, and those cases which which seem to have
> > > had that only show the effect of loaning from language which did
> > > have mobile stress in nouns. Note that *glas-(/*glar-) is one of
> > > them, and that is suspected of being Venetic (as spoken by
> > > Aestians).
> >
> > I'm working on 'glass', have some old papers to read. Regarding
> > the long list of words with gramm. Wechsel, I'll pick a few and try
> > to prove they are IE, inherited the usual way.
>
> Don't forget to explain also why they,
> 1) in spite of alternating stress, supposedly of IE origin, show very little ablaut
> 2) why what ablaut there is seems to be a/u
> 3) why the root vowels seem to a|i|u, not the expected IE a(?)|eI|eU
> 4) why *kas-an- "hare" has Latin 'mot populaire' cognates, also with /a/, in Latin cascus and ca(s)nus, as does *laGu- with lacus
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/38063
> 5) why derivatives seem to carry stress in *gl-á-s, *xr-ínt- and cause root zero grade, where possibleNo, your points are appreciated. If everyone agreed with me, something would be wrong.
> 6) why the documented pre-Saami *skaid- "division" occurs on the list
>
> etc etc. Maybe I'm just being too critical ;-)
> Note also, re your concern wrt. PPGerm *kant-ú- section VII containing 'Die maskulinen u-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel' and 'U-stämmige Adjektiva mit grammatischem Wechsel'. Feminine gender could be imposed on the basis of "hand" f. / "foot" m. found in other IE languages.A real stretch, since 'hand' is masc. in some IE lgs. And note the discrepancy of Frau Sonne, Herr Mond vs. Latin/Greek.
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62525Etr. has no phonemic distinction between /o/ and /u/, and class. Arabic has only /a:/, /i:/, /u:/ for long vowels.
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62535
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64139
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61079
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59612
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/63465
> >
> > Mixed bag of memories. I missed the obvious problem the first time
> > around with your reading Venetic <ka.n.ta ruma.n[.]na> as 'Roman
> > tribe' or whatever.
>
> More like "(of the) Roman community" vel sim.
>
> > In <dona.s.to> the first <o> represents /o:/ (cf. Lat. <do:na:vit>)
> > so <u> cannot represent /o:/ in the same position.
>
> It doesn't have to. *Ruma is an old and/or by-form of Roma, cf. Etruscan Ruma, Arabic Rûm, Slavic Rim-.
> > It looks like <ka.n.ta> is a praenomen,You come up with new stuff faster than I can deal with the old stuff.
>
> No, it doesn't.
>
> > and if we can't etymologize it, it won't help us with 'hand'.
>
> True, but we can.
>
> > I've read all of Kuhn's papers that you posted except "letzte
> > Idg.", and comments on some will follow separately. I agree with
> > many of his points, as you know.
>
> Try getting his 4-volume 'Kleine Schriften', if you can.
>
> > On the IE dog kennel, I consider both Lat. <canis> and Gmc.
> > <hunda-> to be unrelated to Greek <kuo:n> and the rest. That's
> > another posting.
>
> Yes, yes. We know now the dog came from China. I believe *k-n- "dog" is even one of Ruhlen's world language words. We must look east for the origin of that word. Its appearance in a culture expanding (because of the dog?) into river-borne nomadism is not incongruent.
>
> > > In short, I see a semantic development
> > > "carry, support" ->
> > > "carrying pole/beam", and since there are two of those ->
> > > "edge", and, used in warfare ->
> > > "wing of battle formation" (remember the Roman caput porci, ON
> > > svínfylking, battle formation of several cunei, the various
> > > nations in an alliance fought separately beside each other,
> > > cf. Caesar's description of Ariovitus' battle formation,
> > > cf. Gmc *folk-, Russian polk "regiment") ->
> > > "troop, people".
> > > In that development the first element "carry, support" is found
> > > only in Uralic, not in IE so we must look east for the donor.
> >
> > If we need a donor in the first place.
>
> While I'm at it on that root, I found some more suspected cognates
> http://tinyurl.com/lxawe2
> look at the 'hindana' entry
> OHG hunno "centurion",
> and
> Burgundian hend-inos "king",
> Gothis kind-ins
>
> ie. leader of a *kent-
>
> hent-tar "on the edge"?