--- On Mon, 9/21/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> GK: The likeliest explanation (in the absence of firm
> historical or archaeological indicators) is that Sarmatian horsemen
> were hired by the Pannonians from somewhere north of the Danube,
> not necessarily the Tysa area, Dacian at the time.
True, but still in the neighborhood.
****GK: Close enough to be hired (summoned). I don't rule out the possibility that some of the defeated Sarmatians may have remained behind as captives. If that is all you meant, it's arguable if still quite hypothetical and not necessary to explain the Roman army's "weapons" sarmatization. We are still left with the situation that the first known large scale recruitment o0f Sarmatians into the Roman cavalry did not occur until 175 CE. Prior to this they recruited their auxiliary cavalrymen from the Gauls, Germanics, and Illyrians (including Pannonians)****
>
> Thus one might think that the immigration of the Yazyges into the
> Hungarian low plain might have taken place much earlier than
> assumed until now. Under this assumption the locus in Lucanius
> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Marcus_Annaeus_ Lucanus
> would be easier to understand, according to which the Yazyges at
> his time had already lived for a century near Pannonia. One
> shouldn't imagine this movement by the Yazyges as one single
> advance towards the Northwest. As we shall see, these Iranians
> lived in a rather loose family and tribal organization also 100
> years later. Thus the idea suggests itself that their penetration
> took place in smallish bands, families or tribes. Under this
> assumption their mention by Ovid can also be explained. While the
> first groups of Yazyges were already settled between the Danube and
> the Tisza, other tribes of this people might still have lived in
> Muntenia
> http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Muntenia
> and near Tomi."
>
> Maybe we can do better than that, they might have settled *among*
> the Dalmatians etc as equestrian mercenaries, as they did elsewhere
> and elsewhen.
>
> GK: Here you are going beyond the available evidence for this
> early time frame. That is always the main difference between you
> and me (and other scholars). There is always a danger in
> overreaching and trying to make the facts say what they don't say
> because you have a beloved agenda. In this case Harmatta has one
> also (=very early Yazigian settlement in Hungary), and his belief
> opens the way to yours (and could even support more radical views:
> once you stretch things a little (Harmatta) you can stretch them a
> little more (Pedersen), and then even a lot more (someone could
> claim the Sarmatians already wound up in France, or Spain, or
> elsewhere |as equestrian mercenaries) : if you can have them in the
> Tysa basin before they are documented in history or archaeology
> (Harmatta) you can have them anywhere...* ****
Once you have them as gradually Romanizing Roman mercenaries they would become invisible in the general Sarmatization of the Roman army wrt materiel. Whatever trace the former left would be ascribed to the latter.
*****GK: Note that the Sarmatians recruited in 175 did not actually become "invisible". We simply don't know of any such prior recruitment. We may postulate individual informants, but that is hardly sufficient for your broad conclusion.****
Here's an interesting article on the importance of the Illyrians and Pannonians in the Roman empire:
/cut for economy/ That is indeed interesting, but well known. Romans dod indeed utilize the manpower of their conq
http://bib.irb. hr/datoteka/ 167165.FIllyrica _antiqua- h-gracanin. pdf
'THE ROLE OF THE ILLYRIAN MILITARY
The sources emphasize the importance of Illyrian troops:
Sextus Tigidius Perennis, the all-powerfull praetorian prefect of Commodus, had his sons (or son) appointed as commanders of the Illyrian army which is explained in the context of his alleged desire to gain the imperial throne (Herodian, 1.9.1, cf. 1.9.4),
Pescennius Niger tried to win over the support of the Illyrian legions (Herodian, 2.8.10),
Severus won over the Illyrian troops (2.9.10),
Severus visited the legions of Moesia and Pannonia on his way from Mesopotamia where he campaigned against the Parthians (Herodian, 3.10.1),
Severus Alexander mustered the Illyrian troops for his campaign against the Persians (Herodian, 6.4.3 – the Illyrian soldiers suffered especially from sickness during this expedition because they were used to a cooler and moister climate, and more abundant rations of food, 6.6.2),
the Illyrian, i.e. Pannonian soldiers were instrumental in
Maximinus' accession to power (Herodian, 7.8.11, 8.6.1, Zosimos, 1.13.1).
Herodian also singles out the high quality of the Illyrian troops in Severus' army against Niger (3.4.1) and Albinus (3.7.2).
The Illyrian troops and Illyricum gain heavily on importance in the 3rd century AD. The Illyrian soldiery proclaimed many emperors and pretenders, for which our sources provide an insight: the proclamation of
Marinus Pacatianus (Zosimos, 1.20.2) and
Decius (Zosimos, 1.21.1, 1.22.1–2) under Philippus Arabs,
Aemilianus under Decius (Eutropius, 9.5, Epitome, 31.1, Zosimos, 1.28.1),
Ingenuus (Sext. Aurel., 33.2, SHA, Tyranni triginta, 9.1),
Regalianus (SHA, Tyranni triginta, 10.1, 9) and
Aureolus (SHA, Gallieni, 3.3, 5.6) under Gallienus,
Septimius in Dalmatia under Aurelian (Epitome, 35.3, Zosimos, 1.49.2, without a reference of place),
Probus (Sext. Aurel., 37.2: erroneously; he was proclaimed in the East: SHA, Vita Probi, 10.1, Zosimos, 1.64.1), and
Iulianus under Carinus (Sext. Aurel., 38.9).
The Dalmatian cavalry, and troops from Moesia, Pannonia, Noricum, and Raetia distinguished themselves especially in Aurelian's campaign against Zenobia (Zosimos, 1.52.3). The Dalmatian cavalry was given special attention in the Historia Augusta: it distinguished itself by bravery in the war waged by the Emperor Claudius II (Vita Claudii, 11.9), and there are also several real and alleged commanders mentioned (Vita Albini, 6.2, Gallieni, 14.4, 14.9, Vita Claudii, 15.2).
STRATEGIC AND POLITICAL IMPORTANCE OF ILLYRICUM
The emperors were aware of the strategic and political importance of Illyricum as a defence line for Italy. The Historia Augusta says that Illyricum abounds in grain and is thus suitable for the location of troops (Tyranni triginta, 18.8). The Pannonian provinces were even considered as a kind of test ground for future emperors in the early Empire: thus Hadrian was sent by Trajan as a legatus in Lower Pannonia (SHA, Vita Hadriani, 3.9), and he himself put afterwards
his presumptive heir Lucius Ceionius Commodus in charge of Pannonia (SHA, Vita Hadriani, 23.13, Vita Aelii, 3.2).
The emperors were very keen to have their own men entrusted with the command of Pannonia where there were stationed very strong military forces:
Hadrian gave Marcius Turbo temporary command over Pannonia (SHA, Vita Hadriani, 6.7),
Macrinus replaced Caracalla's partisan Sabinus as a legate in Pannonia and appointed in his place his own adherent Marcius Agrippa who was soon succeeded by Aelius Triccianus (Dio, 78.13.2–4),
Decius sent his son Etruscus forward to Illyricum in preparation of the campaign against the Goths (Sext. Aurel., 29.1), and
Carus, leaving for war against the Persians, entrusted Illyricum to his elder son Carinus (Eutropius, 9.19.1, SHA, Carus et Carinus et Numerianus, 16.2).
Our sources single out Illyricum as an important land communication between eastern and western parts of the Empire:
Hadrian goes from Syria via Illyricum to Rome (SHA, Vita Hadriani, 5.10),
Septimius Severus arrives to Italy directly from Pannonia (Herodian, 2.11.3),
Elagabalus comes to Italy from Syria via Illyricum (Dio, 79.3.2),
Maximinus, setting out from Sirimus where he had his headquarters during military expedition against the Sarmatians (SHA, Maximini duo, 13.3), reaches Emona – the first fairly large town on the border of Italy which had previously been part of Pannonia – in his campaign to crush the rebellion of Pupienus and Balbinus (Herodian, 8.1.4, SHA,
Maximini duo, 21.2),
Aurelian sets out for the Pannonian provinces from Aquileia (Zosimos, 1.48.1),
Probus travels through Illyricum on his way to engage the Persians (SHA, Vita Probi, 20.1), he arrives and resides in Sirmium (SHA, Vita Probi, 21.2).
THE ILLYRIAN EMPERORS
The sources mention the Illyrian background of numerous 3rd century emperors:17 for
Decius (native of Budalia in Lower Pannonia: Eutropius, 9.4, Epitome, 29.1; from a village near Sirmium: Sext. Aurel., 29.1),
Saloninus (native of Salonae which is false: SHA, Gallieni, 19.3),
Claudius II (Dalmatian: SHA, Vita Claudii, 11.9, ªof Illyrian descent": 14.2),
Aurelian (Pannonian: SHA, Vita Aureliani, 24.3; born in the region between Dacia and Macedonia: Epitome, 35.1),
Probus (from Sirmium, the city of Pannonia: SHA, Vita Probi, 3.1; Sext. Aurel., 37.4: patria),
Carus (Illyrian: SHA, Carus et Carinus et Numerianus, 4.3; his parents were Illyrians or Pannonians: 4.2–3),
Diocletian (Illyrian: Sext. Aurel., 39.26; Dalmatian: Eutropius, 9.19.2, Epitome, 39.1), and
Maximian (Illyrian: Sext. Aurel., 39.26; Pannonian: Epitome, 40.10).
The Carus' case is interesting: it is a known fact that he was from Narbonne in Gaul (Eutropius, 9.18.1, Epitome, 38.1), but it seems only natural that he was considered Illyrian as were many other soldier emperors of the second half of the 3rd century. It might be so that his family had some connections in Illyricum, for his son
Carinus is referred to as a king of Illyricum (rex Illyrici, SHA, Carus et Carinus et Numerianus, 17.1).18'
And according to the Augustan History (julius Capitolinus, Vita Marci Aurelii)
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Capitolinus
Marcus Aurelius hired ("bought") Germanic troops against the Germani:
http://tinyurl. com/nm8jqt
'And since the pestilence135 was still raging at this time, he both zealously revived the worship of the gods and trained slaves for military service — just as had been done in the Punic war — whom he called Volunteers, after the example of the Volones.136 7 He armed gladiators also, calling them the Compliant, and turned even the bandits of Dalmatia and Dardania137 into soldiers. He armed the Diogmitae,138 besides, and even hired auxiliaries from among the Germans for service against Germans. '
Latin text:
http://tinyurl. com/kny2t
'Instante sane adhuc pestilentia et deorum cultum diligentissime restituit et servos, quemadmodum bello Punico factum fuerat, ad militiam paravit, quos voluntarios exemplo volonum appellavit. 7 armavit etiam gladiatores, quos obsequentes appellavit. latrones etiam Dalmatiae atque Dardaniae milites fecit. armavit et Diogmitas. emit et Germanorum auxilia contra Germanos.'
'emit et Germanorum auxilia contra Germanos' "[he] hired auxiliaries from among the Germans for service against Germans".
'emit ... contra' "he bought ... against" is strange. I wonder if it should be emended to 'emisit' "sent out", implying the Germanic auxilliaries already existed.
> > We know that they ranged on the Lower Danube (and perhaps made
> > incursions westward) as early as the end of the 2nd and the
> > beginning of the 1rst c. BCE. BTW the Wikipedia article also has
> > it wrong in calling the Yazigi "metanastae" (after Ptolemy)
> > already at the time of their original settlement in Ukraine. The
> > Metanastae are those Yazigi who settled in Hungary. There is no
> > evidence for the settlement of Yazigi in the trans-Pannonian
> > plain until very shortly before the mid-1rst c. CE. During
> > Vannius' time of trouble with his relatives, when these had the
> > loyalty of the Quadian cavalry, Vannius, in need of equestrian
> > mercenaries, got some help from the Yazigi, with the probable
> > permission of Farzoi.
>
> Oops! Where did this fact (Vannius' cavalrylessness) come from?
>
> *****GK: Tacitus. Vannius' "native" troops were infantry only at
> that time.***
Yes, but where does the fact that Vannius' cavalry had defected to his relatives come from? It's not something you concluded on your own?
> > So your speculations below about Yazigi in Pannonia are quite
> > empty and useless.
>
> Based on the fact that you (and other scholars) have another
> opinion.
>
> ****GK: Indeed. We try not to fantasize when the evidence isn't
> there.****
It might be. Preconceived assignation might hide it.
Torsten