--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "frabrig" <frabrig@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> In search for a Sarmatian etymon for his invented Iazigyan word
> **far-ang 'enemy, one of the others',
actually, invented word hve only one asterisk in linguistics,
> which, according to him, might have been used by the Iazyges in
> Pannonia (early centuries CE) to designate the Romans and the
> Germanic tribes who entered their service, and that would have been
> subsequently adopted by the latter tribes as their own
> self-designation, thus, allegedly becoming pre-Frankish **frang >
> Germanic frank, Torsten now writes:
>
> > [T]he /r/ -> /l/ thing seems to be later than Alanic.
>
> and
>
> > [Ossetic denominative] suffix -ag... There's your suffix.
>
> The /r/ -> /l/ sound shift in Scytho-Sarmatian languages seems to
> belong to the Middle Iranian stage of North Iranian, as is attested
> in the Pontic Insctiptions. Of course, nobody knows the *exact*
> date at which this sound shift was complete.
The /r/ -> /l/ has occurred neither in the Alanic name Safrac nor in the Yassic loan in Hungarian embër "human being" corresponding to Ossetic æmbæl "mate, comrade". I think Alanic and Yassic trumps your North Pontic for determining the state of affairs in Yazygian.
> The Ossetic denominative suffix -ag is thought to derive from the
> very productive Old Iranian suffix -ka through the Middle Iranian
> forms *(a:)ka and/or *(-ya)ka (where /-*a:-/ and /-*ya-/ belong to
> the stem rather than to the suffix itself).
Well, let the stem sue me then. Effectively it's one suffix, composite or not, and if -(y)ak(a) goes -> -ag in Ossetic, it might have done something similar in Yazygian, before the shift to PPGmc.
> The nasalized suffix **-ang you propose for your **far-ang did not
> exist in Scytho-Sarmatian.
Who knows what the Yazygians might have done to the *-ag suffix. The problem is, however, that the word exists in Germanic both with -ank and -ak, and does so creating an ungodly mess such that an honest linguist will refuse to create some common Germanic descent for it.
> Therefore, your invented Sarmatian ethnonym should, in case, be
> reconstructed as **fala:k(a) or, at best, **fara:k(a). Would you
> derive Germanic 'frank' from such a word?
You don't derive loans, as you very well know. You propose loans when you must give up reconstructing similar words into one root using the historical rules of the language. So the question is: would I propose a loan from Yazygian *p/farág- > PPgmc *p/fra(n)g- -> PGmc *fra(n)k-?
Yes I would. Here's why:
de Vries:
'frakka f , frakki m 'wurfspiess',
run norw f[r]a,knA, g pl (Eggjum c 700, Krause Nr 54),
far frakki
Vielleicht < ae franca 'speer', eig 'die frankische waffe' (Falk NVA 1914 Nr 6, 75)
Das Verhältnis zu dem VN der Franken ist aber unsicher.
Petersson IF 24, 1909, 39 betrachtet franka- eigentlich als waffenname, und stellt es zu as fercal 'riegel, verschluss' und forkr. Geht man aber von dem VN aus, so kann diese gedeutet werden als
nhd mnl frank 'frei, unerschrocken', vgl auch
nnorw frak, frakk 'gut',
nschw dial frak, frakk 'gross, wichtig',
nda dial frag 'gross, stark, klug' und weiter
shetl frag(g) 'klug, wertvoll',
ne dial frack 'aktiv, fertig', vgl. frekr
Der PN Frakki gehört zu anorw frakkr (DN) 'mutig'
...
frankar, frakkar mpl. 'Franken, Franzosen'
< as. Franco oder ae. Franca
vgl frakka
...
freka f. 'kampflust', pl. 'harte forderung';
auch flussname.
vgl. frekr. freki m. 'wolf; feuer; schiff (poet.),
eig. 'der gierige'.
ae. freca 'held, krieger'.
vgl. frekr.
...
frekr adj. 'gierig; hart, streng',
nisl. fär. frekur,
nnorw. frek,
nschw. dial. fräk.
> finn. perkkaan 'gefrässig sein'
(Karsten GFL 253, bestritten von Wiklund IF 38, 1917, 113).
got. faihu-friks 'geldgierig',
ae. frec (< *freka) und fröc (< *fraka),
mnl. vrec, ahd. freh 'gierig'.
Zum übrigens ebenso isolierten
abret. rogedou (pl.)'orgiis',
kymr. rhewydd 'geilheit'
(Lane, Lang. 9, 1933, 258), oder zu
gr. spargáo: 'schwelle, strotze',
lett. spirgt 'frisch werden' (Torp, Fschr. Unger 183-5).
vgl. frakka, freka, freki, frökinn, frökn und sprökr.
...
frökn adj. 'kühn, mutig',
nisl. frökn,
fär. frøknur,
nnorw. frøken,
aschw. frøkn,
adä frøkön BN.
ae. fre:cne, frö:cne 'mutig, gefährlich, wild',
as. frökni, fre:kni 'frech',
ahd. fruohhan 'kühn, verwegen'.
abl. zu frekr.
Daneben frökinn adj. 'kühn', frökinn, nnorw. frøken.
...
sprækr adj. 'hurtig, lebhaft' (< germ. *spre:kia),
nisl. sprökur,
nnorw. spræk,
nschw. dial. spraker,
vgl. far. sprökin.
> ne. dial. schott. sprack (Flom 64).
ae. gespröce,
ahd. gispra:hhi 'gesprachig'.
vgl. spraka und sprek.
'
August Fick
Wortschatz der germanischen Spracheinheit
'freka, fraka tüchtig, wirksam, frisch, gierig,
frôkn(i)a mutig, dreist.
g. in faíhu-friks geldgierig;
an. frekr gierig, streng, hart;
ags. frec und fræc begierig, dreist;
ahd. freh begierig,
mhd. vrech mutig, kühn, lebhaft.
an. frökn, frökinn mutig;
as. frôkni frech, wild, verwegen,
ags. frêcne mutig, gefährlich.
Vgl. cymr. rhewydd Geilheit (St. pragio-).
Ig. Wz. (s)pe-rag strotzen.
Vgl. gr. spargé: strotzender Trieb, Leidenschaft,
spargáo: strotze.
- lett. spirgt frisch werden, erstarken.
S. sprek. (245:6)'
and, for good measure, with un-Grimm-shifted p-:
'prag, prang drücken, pressen.
g. ana-praggan red. vb? bedrängen;
mnd. prangen drücken, klemmen,
m. eng. pranglen, prengen pressen;
mhd. phrengen, pfrengen (= prangian) zwängen, einzwängen, bedrängen, beschweren,
nhd. bair. pfrengen dass.
Hierzu schwed. prångenge Gasse,
m. eng. pronge (Bedrängung), Pein, Angst,
mnd. prank Kampf, Streit,
prange Pfahl (um zu hemmen), Maulklemme;
mhd. phrange f. Einengung, Einschließung,
nhd. bair. pfreng eng.'
Dansk etymologisk ordbog:
'pragt en; ["splendour"]
ænyda. d.s.,
no., sv. prakt;
lån fra mnty. pracht, ty. Pracht,
af oldhty. praht, modsv. oldsax. braht larm';
den mnty. form er lånt fra hty.
Til sa. rod som brag.
Jf. prægtig.
Sml. bram.
prakke v. 'trænge ind på; overtale til at købe';
ænyda. pracke, no. prakke, sv. pracka;
lån fra mnty. prachen 'tigge', der ligesom
ty. prachem d.s., Pracher 'tigger' anses for at være lånt fra slav., jf. polsk dial. pracharz 'tigger',
som hører til
oldkirk. prositi 'bede',
besl. med
oldhty. fergon 'bede', fråga 'spørgsmål', ty. Frage d.s. og
forske (s.d.).
...
I. prange v. 'glimre, prale'; ["be resplendent, brag"]
ænyda., no. d.s.; lån fra mnty, hty. prangen, der ligesom
mnty prank, mhty. branc, prank 'praleri'
anses for besl. med
prunk. ["splendour"]
Muligvis dog til en rod med betydn. 'brække, knække', derefter 'give knækkende lyd; larme', som foreligger i no. dial. branka 'knække'.
II. prange v. (dial.) 'drive (heste)handel'; ["do horse trade"]
glda. pranghe 'stride med, volde trængsler',
["feud with, cause trouble"]
no. dial. pranga 'sjakre', ["barter"]
sv. dial. pranga 'prutte', ["haggle"]
isl. pranga 'prange',
got. praggan 'trykke',
mnty. prangen 'trykke, klemme';
til ie. *bronk- 'indeslutte'.'
(Of course I prefer my own etymologies for these words)
Note the frVnk-/frVk-, prVng-/prVk-/brVnk- alternations (and Engl. 'brag'?). p-/b- alternation is a feature of Kuhn's NWBlock words in p-.
Now who would try to unite all this under the hat of 'Germanic'?
Not me, for sure.
Torsten