From: tgpedersen
Message: 65002
Date: 2009-09-09
> --- On Mon, 9/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:It's a small book of 171 pages, it's not 'Les Nomades'.
>
> > > As long as you maintain that Scandinavia, unlike Eastern
> > > Europe, had not been Sarmatized, ie. invaded and taken over by
> > > an elite of Sarmatian descent, you will have to try to make out
> > > and argue the distinctions you made in that post between East
> > > European and Scandinavian elites. I won't.
> >
> > GK: I make no claim that Eastern Europe was "invaded and
> > taken over by an elite of Sarmatian descent" beyond what history
> > and archaeology demonstrate.
>
> Like I said.
>
> > The distinctions between East European (Slavic, Iranic, Turkic
> > etc.)and Scandinavian elites (in the period of the 9th and 10th
> > cs.) need no longer be argued, just stated. The evidence is in.
>
> At that time, yes.
>
> > On the other hand, your problem with the "Sarmatization" of
> > Scandinavia remains your very own little calvary. Like I said,
> > have fun in cloud kookooland.
>
> It's hard to give up old faiths,
>
> ****GK: That's your real answer (:=)))
>
> but you'll come around.
>
> ****GK: Substitute "I'll" for "you'll" and hope dawns. (:=)))
>
> Vladimir Kouznetsov et Iaroslav Lebedinsky
> Les Alains
> pp. 51-52
>
>
> ****GK: You have Lebedynsky? I've tried to get his stuff through amazon,com and amazon.ca only to be told that it's sold out... He's fantastic from the little I've read, esp. on the eastern Alans ansd Sakas. He's the one that claims the Ordos culture (cf. Wikipedia) was Scythian (in the 3rd c. BCE)****
> 'Les influences culturellesHe interprets the facts that certain tamgas disappeared on the steppe and then reappeared on Germanic territory to mean that those clans became extinct on the steppe and then the Germanic clans started using them, without really claiming descent, except possibly thought women. The economic solution is instead that those Sarmatian clans physically moved on to Przeworsk territory, creating a hierarchic mixed culture on the process.
> Les recherches les plus prometteuses sont sans doute celles qui
> portent non sur les traces matérielles des Alains en Occident, mais
> sur les influences qu'ils ont pu y exercer soit directement, soit
> par l'intermédiaire des peuples germaniques.
>
> C'est dans le domaine militaire que ces influences sont les plus
> évidentes. Des avant les Invasions, Goths et Vandales «sarmatisent»
> leur armement et leurs tactiques. La profondeur réelle de ces
> changements au IVe siècle est difficile à déterminer, faute de
> textes précis et mêmes de données archéologiques (les Goths, par
> exemple, ne déposent pas d'armes dans les tombes !), mais l'in-
> contestable développement de cavaleries puissantes chez ces peuples
> est très révelateur.
>
> Rome elle-même s'était mise à l'école des cavaliers nomades. Dès
> les IIe-IIIe siècles, la cavalerie romaine emprunte l'épée longue à
> pontet de fourreau vertical, dispositif apparu chez les peuples
> iraniens des steppes, la monture de glaive à pommeau annulaire
> typique des Sarmates, la cataphracte à écailles de fer et les
> bardes de cheval, enfin le draco, l'étandard manche à air en forme
> de dragon.'
>
> etc etc.
>
> ****GK: Exactly. All this has basically been known for quite a
> while...****
>
> How do you know there were no Sarmatians physically present in the
> process?
>
> ****GK: I don't. It's not only possible but probable. So what?****
>
> And if you admit that, how will you deny the possibility of
> Sarmatians in the flesh elsewhere, ie. in Scandinavia, where
> Sarmatian artifacts have been found?
>
> ****GK: Or Sarmatians in the flesh in China and elsewhere. Why not?
> So what?****
>
> Why maintain a distinction between areas where a tamga was a tamga
> and areas where they were used only for decoration?
>
> ****GK: Cf. Yatsenko. He's studied the stuff for nearly 30 years.
> If he says that Sarmatians did not gakk their spears in the period
> 150-250 CE, I believe him...
> And more generally, there is a world ofAnd now you're back to accusing me of apostasy, since after changing your opinion while vehemently denying that you did so you can't deny the possibility of Snorri's account. Take a look at the distribution of the haplotypes I1
> difference between a casual "Sarmatian" presence as above and the
> Odinist scenario. It's the unwarranted further conclusion I always
> (and still) object to.***