From: george knysh
Message: 64986
Date: 2009-09-05
--- On Sat, 9/5/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > A tamga catalogue, spiced with Turkic objections
> > http://tinyurl. com/r7yu7l
> >
> Another one
> http://www.kroraina .com/alan/ olhovskij. html
Note BTW that Ininphimeus (must be = Inismeios)'s tamga (fig. 9.4) is the one Yatsenko ascribes to his father(?) Pharzoios.
****GK: This is another Inismei/Ininphimei, who was king of the Bosporus in 234-239, about the time of the Gothic penetration into "Oium". Perhaps related to the Farzoi clan. Inismei,the successor of Farzoi ruled European Scythia ca. 70-85.****
If, as I proposed, Pharzoios' tamga is a derivation of the simple bi-dent
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/64978
****GK: I think dilettantes like ourselves (:=)) in the matter of gakks should be careful here. Better to ask the experts. Your notion is plausible (as is mine) but who knows how these gakks arose and combined? It is also arguable that the Farzoi gakk is a combination of the Khwarezmian bident and another old Khwarezmian sign, the simple inverted halfmoon, which was one of the important signs in the Crimea (near the capital of Skilur, Neapolis). On the other hand this "combination" need not have occurred in Europe, since the sign is known on the upper Yenisei a little earlier, as you noted. But Olhovskij (cf. below) argues very plausibly that in nomad times similar signs could easily appear thousands of kilometers apart quite quickly. It would be very tempting to ascribe the fusion to the political union of Satarchan Spali and Aorsi in the 40's, but we just don't know for sure.*****
then this is very interesting:
'Na Rusi v X-XIII vv. imeli zametnoe rasprostranenie «znaki Rjurikovic^ej» — tamgoobraznye znaki v vide dvu- ili trezubtsa. Oni nanosilisI na oruz^ie i orudija truda, proizvedenija iskusstva, keramiku, arxitekturnye sooruz^enija. Osobenno c^asto podobnye znaki vstrec^ajutsja na svintsovyx tovarnyx plombax i pec^atjax, c^to svidetelIstvuet i ob ix «juridic^eskoj znac^imosti». V poslednie gody izuc^enie znakov Rjurikovic^ej pozvolilo prosleditI protsess prevras^c^enija rodovogo znaka v lic^nyj, a takz^e vyjavitI zakonomernosti otraz^enija e^togo protsessa v tipologic^eskix osobennostjax samix znakov (beletskij S.v., 1999). Opredelennoe sxodstvo so znakami Rjurikovic^ej imejut sinxronnye im i bolee pozdnie geralIdic^eskie znac^ki PolIs^i i Litvy, v osnove kotoryx c^asto lez^it dvu- libo trezubets (beletskij S.v., 1999, s. 320, 321). Po forme bolIs^instvo ix napominaet kak znaki Rjurikovic^ej, tak i sarmatskie i rannetjurkskie znaki. Dannoe sxodstvo s
uc^etom xronologic^eskix pozitsij ukazannyx grupp znakov svidetelIstvuet o nalic^ii u opredelennoj c^asti slavjanskogo naselenija es^c^e v domongolIskoe vremja razvityx sistem znakov semejnoj i lic^noj prinadlez^nosti. Pri e^tom dostatoc^no oc^evidno ispolIzovanie tamgoobraznyx znakov prez^de vsego predstaviteljami sotsialInoj verxus^ki.'
Dvuzubtsy! Seems that Pharzoios dude or rather the clan he came from was more important than one could imagine.
Comments, George?
****GK: All sorts of speculations are possible. The "Khwarezmian bident" appears again among the Alan allies of the Goths in the period 250-400 (acc. to Yatsenko). These are the "Rosomoni" whose linkage to the Kyiv foundation legend (and to the Hermanaric sagas) is established ("Svanilda"-> Lybid'). Yatsenko has also noted the presence of an old "trident" in the area of the Aukhata (south of Kyiv) in the period 150-250. Bidents and tridents are also known in the Bosporus.
NB. The Olhovskij tamga study is quite interesting. He claims the system initially arose in the Persian Empire (Achaemenids), then spread to Khwarezm, and was borrowed extensively (from ca. 300 BCE) by the Sarmato-Alans who contacted with Khwarezm, and from them osmosed to others, including later Scythians and Sakas. The classical Scythians and early Sarmatians didn't know it. Afterwards, it was adopted by Turks, Mongols, etc etc etc.. Olhovskij rejects Turkic claims to have originated tamgas as unfounded.*****
Torsten