Re: Town, Zaun, and Celtic Dun-

From: tgpedersen
Message: 64921
Date: 2009-08-22

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
>
> At 2:00:17 PM on Saturday, August 22, 2009, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Meditate on this:
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64648
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield
>
> > Note that neither here
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UrnfieldCulture.jpg
> > nor here
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hallstatt_culture.png
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hallstatt_LaTene.png
> > (from
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture
> > )
>
> Which says:
>
> Trade and population movements (very probably both) spread
> the Hallstatt cultural complex into the western Iberian
> peninsula, Britain, and Ireland. It is probable that some
> if not all of this diffusion took place in a
> Celtic-speaking context.

The whole area is fuzzy and needs a rethink, the case of the above quote mismatching the illustration is just one symptom.

> And from
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture>:
>
> La Tène cultural material appeared over a large area,
> including parts of Ireland and Great Britain (the lake
> dwellings at Glastonbury, England, are a well known
> example of La Tène culture), northern Spain, Burgundy, and
> Austria.

And Glastonbury is in this area
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae#Belgae_outside_Gaul
cf. the La Tène map.


> > in the area of Insular Celtic languages included.
> > This means (Stephen Oppenheimer pointed this out) that
> > either
>
> > 1) the Insular Celtic languages are not Celtic, or
>
> Which is obviously false: the definition of 'Celtic
> language' is pretty unambiguous.

Don't be disingenuous.

> > 2) Hallstatt and La Tène cultures are not Celtic cultures.
>

I was pointing out that whatever term you use, you can't use it both of the relict languages on the British Isles and in Brittany and of the Hallstatt culture, which was Oppenheimer's point.


> Also from the La Tène article:
>
> Some of the societies that are archaeologically identified
> with La Tène material culture were identified by Greek and
> Roman authors from the 5th century onwards as keltoi
> ("Celts") and galli ("Gauls").

Which is obviously irrelevant. The question is: who got the idea of identifying the relict Western languages with the Celtic culture of Gaul?

> Herodotus placed keltoi at the source of the Danube, in the
> heartland of La Tène material culture.

Oppenheimer has problems with that one too.

> Whether this means that the whole of La
> Tène culture can be attributed to a unified Celtic people
> is difficult to assess; archaeologists have repeatedly
> concluded that language, material culture, and political
> affiliation do not necessarily run parallel.

A platitude by which the author tries to dispel doubts about the present assignations.



Torsten