Re: Aryan invasion theory and race

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@> wrote:
>
> > Francesco has said that Yavanas were Greeks and one of his sources
> > was Mahabharata.
>
> Wait a minute. I have never said I regard the Indian epics as a reliable source for extrapolating historical data. <...>
>

Then why have you quoted the sanskrit texts *as the only* source for the supposed marriages of Hindus and foreigners. Where is the inscriptional or other textual reference from the greeks?

> > In fact this connection of Yavans with Greeks is considered the
> > sheet-anchor for the dating of Mahabharata to post-Alexandrian
> > times.
>
> Which seems to be the main problem for all those Hindu nationalists like you, many among whom date the Mahabharata war to 3067 or 3102 BCE or to some other absurdly early period (admitted that that war ever took place).
>

No. On the contrary it seems to be the main problem for the AIT believers.

> > I merely pointed out that if we are using Mbh as a source then we
> > ought to consider all references of Yavana in that book.
>
> Apart from the fact that the Mbh is not a "book", why don't you start to go through the long list of textual references provided by J.L. Brockington in note 56 of his book _The Sanskrit Epics_ at
>
> http://tinyurl.com/m9kho7 ?
>
> Note that, at Mbh 12.200.40c, the name used according to Brockington is Yauna, not Yavana! Compare with Old Perisn Yauna 'Greeks'.
>

Have you tried finding the shloka 40 in book 12 chapter 200?

> > A Yavana king in Mbh is Bhagdatta who is described as a ruler of
> > modern Assam. My question to Francesco was what greeks were settled
> > in Assam and could he confirm the identity of this ruler from the
> > Greek sources. So how am I using non-established?
>
> Yes, you are. Since this is the nth time in the course of this discussion you come up with this story about the mention in the Mbh of a "Yavana king" named Bhagadatta, let me briefly mention the following elements of critique, which make your triumphalistic "proof" that Yavanas were not Greeks a moot issue:
>
> 1) In certain passages of the Mbh king Bhagadatta is said to be ruling "in the west" (not in Assam, which is in the northeast!).
>

No. Please check the primary sources. In most passages Bhagadatta is mentioned as ruling the east (purvasagaravasine in udyog parva 4.11) or the ruler of northern forests (Stree Parva 23.10). Same is true for his capital city, PragJyotishpur which is described as in the north (Sabha Parva) or the east (Markandeya Purana). So in 2.14 word west is just a scribal error.

>
> 2) In another passage Bhagadatta is stated to have "come with Greeks with purebred horses":
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lytaw6
>
> Horses of superior and excellent breed would be out of question if Bhagadatta had been a ruler of Assam, a region were horses are not known to have been bred in antiquity.
>

This does not have much merit. If you were the king you could import any kind of horse from other regions.

> 4) The "yellow-complexioned" Chinas and Kiratas whom, along with the Yavanas, were part of Bhagadatta's army did not necessarily reside in or around Assam. Several scholars have distinguished between the Chinas mentioned in the Mbh and the actual Chinese, and have located the Chinas of the Mbh near the Karakorum region (indeed, they are often associated in the epic with the Yavanas and Kambojas, two peoples of the NW). Moreover, how could Bhagadatta, who is also said in the Mbh to have ruled on people "dwelling on the coast" (presumably that of Bengal), have extended his kingdom from the Bay of Bengal to Assam and the Himalayas (where the Kiratas lived) and up to the "West" (the 'classic' settlement area of the Yavanas)? Was Bhagadatta's kingdom real, or merely a legendary one?
>

No. You are still thinking of yavanas as greeks. Please loose this connection. Bhagdatta was a yavana and he *was not* a greek. He lived in the himalayas in the eastrern side of India at a place called PragJyotishpur which is modern Assam.

> A huge amount of literary and epigraphic sources point to this direction. Please acknowledge this plain fact, Shivraj, and don't try to muddle the waters further.
>

No. There is no muddling of waters. You are making a wrong association in Mahabharata which is not consistent with rest of the epic.

Regards,
-Shivraj