From: Andrew Jarrette
Message: 64826
Date: 2009-08-19
>Oh yes I forgot about the 'dune/down' words. But does it go 'citadel, fortified high place' > 'walled town' > 'town wall' > 'fence, hedge' > 'enclosed place, yard' or is it more like 'citadel, fortified high place' > 'walled town' > 'enclosure = enclosed place' > 'enclosure = fence, hedge'? I want to know whether German has the more original meaning than OE, and whether the NE meaning 'town' is actually an original meaning. It's interesting that in English from the quaternary meaning (according to the second series)'enclosure = enclosed place' the meaning goes back to the tertiary meaning 'town' (through intermediary 'enclosed group of houses' > 'village' > town'). Or is this really the sequence of events? Is the English meaning 'town', which according to Zoega is also shared by Old Icelandic (as a more infrequent sense), actually an old tertiary meaning, not a reversion (through quaternary, fifth in series, sixth in series, etc.) to the tertiary meaning (if you catch my drift)?
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> --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote:
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> From: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...>
> Subject: [tied] Town, Zaun, and Celtic Dun-
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 8:50 PM
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> Question:
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> Is Germanic *tu:n- (> Engl <town>, Germ <Zaun>) considered to be cognate to or an early loan from Celtic *du:n- as in OIr <du:n> 'fortress, fortified city' and Welsh <din> 'fortress' (also meanings such as 'camp', 'castle', 'fort' in these languages, not sure which)? I believe the last I read was that the Celtic words go back to PIE *dhu:n-, and the Germanic words are pre-Grimm's- Law loans from Celtic. Is this still the accepted view?
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> What is the original meaning of this *dhu:n-? Is it closer to the Celtic meanings of 'fortified place, fortified settlement', or to the Old English meaning 'enclosure', or to the OHG meaning 'fence, hedge, enclosing barrier'? I see all of these meanings possibly unified under the basic sense 'walled town' (thereby both enclosed and fortified). This
> would suggest that the Old English meaning is closer to the original sense than is the OHG meaning, at least as I see it; would the present-day English meaning 'town' possibly be much older than generally believed, and go back to the original meaning 'walled town' without any intervening OE meanings like 'yard, garden, field, manor, farm, homestead, house, village'? Or is the Proto-Germanic meaning definitely 'enclosing barrier' as in OHG and German is therefore more conservative than English (which only had the meaning 'enclosed place' and developments of this basic meaning, apparently) at least within Germanic?
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> Anybody care to answer these questions?
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> Andrew
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> Watkins mentions that these words are limited to Celtic and Germanic. So it may be Celtic subtrate. If I had to guess an original meaning, I'd say "height, hill", see English dune and down "hill" < ? Briton and see "citadel, fortified high place" as secondary meanings and "town" as a tertiary meaning
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