From: george knysh
Message: 64771
Date: 2009-08-16
--- On Sun, 8/16/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> Nomads usually had no "capitals". However, they did control
> settlements for the purpose of facilitating economic exchanges. We
> know for instance that in the times of the Cumans there were Alanic
> cities along the Donetz (near today's Kharkiv) which were "owned"
> by (and named after) Cumanian (Polovtsian) warlords. Some centuries
> earlier Pecheneg warlords are also likely "owners" of some Lower
> Dnipro "ruined cities" mentioned by Constantine Porphyrogenitus in
> his De administrando imperio. These "cities" (archaeology sees them
> as walled fortresses with acropolises and agricultural hinterlands/
> choras/) were not completely ruined until the time of the Avars and
> Bulgars, though their deterioration began under the Goths and
> accelerated under the Huns). Ptolemy mentions a few at:
>
> http://penelope. uchicago. edu/Thayer/ E/Gazetteer/ Periods/Roman/ _Texts
> /Ptolemy/3/5* .html
>
> Cf. towns "along the Borysthenes river". The most interesting name
> is "Metropolis" not far to the east of Olbia. This is the best
> candidate for the "capital" of Farzoi and his dynasty. Just
> possibly (though this is speculative) it could later have become
> Hermanaric's "capital" as well (the "Danparstadt" of the sagas).
Actually Danparstaðir (pl.), and staðir does not quite mean town
http://www.carlaz. com/phd/cea_ phd_chap2. pdf
de Vries:
'staðr 1 m. 'stehen, stätte, ort' "standing, place, locality"
('stadt' "town" unter d. einfluss "under German influence"),
nisl. fär. staður, nnorw. schw. stad, ndä. sied. — >
shetl. sta; > me. stad 'Stellung, zustand' (Björkman 161). —
got. staþs, ae. stede, stæð, afr. sted(e), as. stath, stedi, mnd. mnl. stat, ahd. stat. —
lat. statim 'stehend, sofort', statio 'aufenthalt' ,
gr. stásis, ai. sthíti- 'stehen', air. fossad 'fest',
asl. postatI 'bestimmung' (IEW 1006). —
vgl. standa.
Mit hinsicht auf die bedeutung weist L. Hellberg NB 46, 1958, 72-91 darauf hin, dass staðr auch dial. 'rahmen zum heutrocknen, heufeld' bedeutet, wie auch pl. stadir 'bebautes grundstück'.'
"Wrt. the sense LH points out that staðr dial. also means 'frame for drying hay, hayfield', as also pl. staðir "built-on plot of land"'
****GK: This would sound better than "town" for an ex-Scythian "capital" with a small population amidst many abandoned and/or ruined buildings + peripheral village-like settlements in the neighborhood (something like the Kyiv of immediate post-tatar invasion (1240)times)****
Danparstaðir is mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Dan_%28king% 29
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ R%C3%ADg_ %28Norse_ god%29
****GK: Couldn't find the word there.****
> Two cities further along (Sarum and Amadoka) resemble the names of
> the two Rosomon (=Alanic) "brothers" (Sarus and Ammius) who
> rebelled against Hermanaric (the "Golden Scythian") just before the
> Hunnic invasion of ca. 370.
>
Footmote 34 of the above URL:
'34 It is interesting to note that in describing Dan and Angul, the
legendary leaders of the early Danes, Saxo says that Ôregii tamen
nominis expertes degebant, cuius usum nulla tunc temporis apud nostros
consuetudinum frequentabat auctoritasÕ; Gesta Danorum, p. 10 (Book
1). This description might represent the memory of a time when
southern Scandinavian society was not ruled by kings, perhaps during
Gudme's floruit. It is difficult to say whether a similar situation
is recalled in Ynglinga saga, where Snorri said that ancient
Scandinavian leaders were titled dróttnar rather than konungar.
Bjarni Aðalbjarnarson suggested that Snorri may have acquired this
idea from Ynglingatal, where Dómaldi is described as a dróttinn while
his successor Dyggvi is called a konungmann; Heimskringla, i, 34 n.
1. Green, however, argued that Snorri's distinction 'is not to be
dismissed out of hand as an etymological game'; Green, Language, p.
129.'
Konungr as descendants of Kon doesn't sound wrong to me, in which case Konungr was originally a member of a certain dynasty.
Can the name Kon be equated with a name of a ruler on the Don or Dniepr?
****GK: One could start by seeing which names are associated with Danparstadir.
P.S. This area east of Olbia [Hylaea] had apparently much "sacral" significance for a variety of peoples. From Herodotus' Scythians (also in the Pontic Greek version of the foundation legend) and probably the predecessors of the Scythians ["1,000 years to Targitaos"], to the Sarmatian royal clans ["Spali"], to the Goths, and subsequently to the Huns and esp. the Late Huns who withdrew there after Nedao [454/455], as well as to those of their offshoots who found refuge in Armenia in the 6th c [reminiscence of "the land of Paluni"]. Subsequently to the Rus' of Kyiv who knew the area as "the white (=western) shore" in 971/972, and associated their pre-Norse dynasts ["Poli" and "Polani"] with it. Probably to the Pechenegs (who also had a Scythian-like "3 sons" founding myth [some of their tribes were likely Iranic incl. the "Kangar" (Central Asia?)], the Cumans, and perhaps the Tartars, though I am less familiar with the latter two.*****
Torsten