Re: Clonix, Clondicus

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- On Sun, 8/16/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> These are two of the three Bastarnian names we know (we know no appellatives) .
>
> http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/13998
>
> ****GK: AFAIK "Chlonix" is only found in Gibbon (I don't know his source). Henri Hubert's three names are : Clondicus, Cotto [both in Livy 40:57,58], and Talto (Gibbon's "Deldon") which Hubert gets from Muellenhof. Livy has this to say s.a 179 BCE: "The Scordisci were expected to grant a passage to the Bastarnae without any difficulty for neither in speech nor habits were they dissimilar." The Scordisci are usually held to be a Celto-Illyrian or Celto-Thracian complex (depending on their groups' geography). The Bastarnae are even more complicated in early times: a mix of Celts ("Galatae") Germanics ("Sciri") and Getans (with Germanic slowly getting the upper hand). In 179 BCE Livy's "similar speech" would most likely have been a Celtic dialect. Hubert considers the three princely names to be Germanic.****
>
> (Googling, I find Chl- only in the Gibbons footnote quote, Cl- everywhere else, so I'll assume Cl-)
>
> Could they be the regularly Grimm-shifted relative of that Aestian word *gl-a-s- which was loaned into Germanic (thus no Grimm)
>
> ****GK: The Aestii could have been a Celtic group (Tacitus speaks
> of their "British"-like language) /he knew nothing of British
> Veneti/****

There is nothing Celtic about them, AFAIK.
But the Aestii, as related here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aestii
might be related to the Osismi/Ostimoi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osismi
who lived next to and allied with the Veneti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti_%28Gaul%29
in Armorica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica
the inhabitants of which according to Posidonius were Belgae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae
(who were also settled in Britain)
just like the Aestii in the Baltic lived next to and probably borrowed the language of the Baltic Veneti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
which explains the long series of *balg- hydronyms from England to Poland
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60815
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60821
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62517
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64012
ultimately related to the FU (or substrate to FU) *walg- hydronyms in the east (which means all the western *balg- names have experienced Venetic *w- > *b- shift, which means the Veneti had been there at some time.

Easy, huh?

Considering the ideology around the Sciri/Bastarnae names, the Bastarnian top dogs probably spoke Germanic from the beginning.
And if the *danu- > Tanew etymology holds, Grimm had taken place in that general area.


Torsten