RE : [tied] Re: North of the Somme

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "caotope" <johnvertical@...> wrote:

>
> > > > > No, Germanic "pitch" is loaned to BFinnic as *piki.
> > > >
> > > > Except that the word is not originally Germanic, no words in
> > > > p- are, so why restrict the list of candidates to Germanic?
> > >
> > > Because it's easiest? Germanic > BF loans are kno'n to exist. I
> > > see no advantage to positing independant loaning from a
> > > substrate (in this case, anyway).
> >
> > You will. See next comment.
> >
> > > Anyway, not the point - it is that the immediate BF cognate is
> > > *piki "pitch", not *pihka "resin". The two might be ultimately
> > > related in some fashion, but the regular Khanty cognate of the
> > > latter means it cannot be from the direction of Scandinavia!
> >
> > Exactly. Which shows you shouldn't have taken the easy option of
> > choosing Germanic in the first place. A language subtrate to both
> > solves it.
>
> You're not paying attention. Let's go over this again - there are
> two Baltic-Finnic words here, and you seem to be confused as to
> what applies to what:
> *piki "pitch", a trivial loan from Germanic (which might itself be
> a substrate loan, but that's not relevant for BF)
> *pihka "resin", regularly cognate with Khanty *peG@...; this link
> means it cannot be a West European substrate loan, and confirms
> that the *h is from former *S.

No, *you* are not paying attention. I said 'substrate loan', not 'West European substrate loan'. A substrate common to FU/Uralic and northern IE.

>
> > > Germanic loans only ever have *-k- > *-k-
> > > (old) or *-k- > *-kk- (newer). So we should expect
> > > preaspiration(/preglottalization) from substrates, too, to
> > > simply disappear, not to become *-hk-.
> >
> > Only if the Germanic -> BF loans were from preaspirating Germanic
> > languages.
>
> They're anywhence from Pre-Proto-Germanic to Modern Swedish, so
> this would demand that preaspiration is a western Scandinavian
> innovation. (I think it could well be, tho, so perhaps this is
> surmountable. Irrelevant, however; see before.)

Relevant, see before.

>
> > > > > > pec^ä ~ penc^ä 'Kiefer, Föhre; Pinus sylvestris' FP
> > > > > > Finn. petäjä (dial. petäjäs) 'Föhre, Kiefer';
> > > > > > est.
> > > > > > pedajas (Gen. pedaja),
> > > > > > pedakas (Gen. pedaka),
> > > > > > pädajas (Gen. pädaja),
> > > > > > pädakas (Gen. pädaka)
> > > > > > 'sehr harzige, harte, nicht hochgewachsene Kiefer;
> > > > > > Pinus sylvestris'|
> > > > > > lapp. N bæcce -æ:3- 'Pinus silvestris',
> > > > > > l. piehtse:, pä:htse: 'Kiefer, Föhre',
> > > > > > K (1525) T piecce, Kld. pie1cc, Not. piehe
> > > > > > 'Kiefer, Fichtenrinde (zur Speise)' |
> > > > > > '
> > > > > > mord. E pic^e, M pic^ä 'Kiefer; Pinus sylvestris' |
> > > > > >
> > > > > > tscher. (E. Itk.: FUF 31: 177)
> > > > > > KB p&nc^& 'Kiefer', U pün´c´ö 'Kiefer, Föhre' |
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wotj. S puz^im, puz^im, K puz^&^m
> > > > > > 'Fichte, Tanne, Kiefer; Pinus sylvestris',
> > > > > > (Wichm.) G puz^î.m 'Fichte, Kiefer, Föhre' |
> > > > > >
> > > > > > syrj. S poz^em, P poz^u.m, poz^i.m, PO po.z^øm 'Kiefer'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finn. jä, est. jas, kas, wotj. und syrj. m sind
> > > > > > Ableitungssuffixe.
> > > > > > Das Finn., Lapp. und Mord. weisen auf *c^, das Tscher.
> > > > > > auf *nc^ und die perm. Wörter auf *c^ oder *nc^ hin.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mari changes rather regularly *nc^ > *c^ (*ponc^a "tail" >
> > > > > *paac^, *künc^i "nail" > *kööc^, *panc^a- "to open" >
> > > > > *paac^a-) so this is dubbly unexpected.
> > > >
> > > > But not in the 'language of geminates', where this is
> > > > expected.
> > >
> > > So what? Perhaps it could cause insertion of *-n-, but said
> > > soundlaw would then delete it anyway.
> >
> > Not if the loans was later.
>
> Too hypothetical for my taste, I like the contamination explanation
> better (thanks for bringing the 2nd word to my attention BTW).

Well, suit yourself. But the presence of two similar-sounding reconstructions for similar-meaning sets of cognates should have alerted you to suspect loan.

>
> > > *s'äla > salava "crack willow" (back-harmonized by influence
> > > from:)
> > > Gmc *salaka > halava "willow"
> >
> > That one is odd. I see that so many times: Uralic or FU word gets
> > influenced in Finnish by some Gmc/IE word which happens to sound
> > like it and mean something similar.
>
> Many times? Other examples?

'kansa 'Volk, Leute; Genosse, Freund' FP
...
Die Zusammenstellung ist unsicher, weil die finn. und lapp. Wörter auch Entlehnungen aus dem Germ. sein können ( < frühurgerm. *xansa: < germ. *hanso: > got. hansa 'Schar, Menge', ahd. hansa 'Kriegerschar').

sal3 (sala) Salz' FP
...
Das ostseefinnische Wort ist möglicherweise eine Entlehnung aus dem Baltischen.'

> The only thing coming to my mind are cases where an insecure and
> irregular Uralic etymology has later simply been replaced by a
> Germanic loan etymology.

What's insecure about *s´ala-, *kansa- and *sal3- ?
Here's UEW *s´ala-
's´ala 1 'Ulme' FU
Finn. salava, (SKES) salaja 'Palmweide; salix fragilis 1. caprea',
? halava, (SKES) ? halaja |

mord. E s´el´ej, s´el´en,, M s´äl´i 'Ulme' |

tscher. KB s^ol, U B s^olo
'Ulme (KB U B); Schlittenband (aus Ulmengerte) (B)' |

ung. szil (Px3Sg. szilja od. szilje)
'Ulme, Rüster, Ulmus', (altung.) szilas 'Ulmenwald'.


Vgl. ieur.:
lat. salix 'Weide, Weidenbaum',
ahd. sal(a)ha id. (<*sal- 'schmutziggrau').

Finn. va, ja und mord. j, n,, i sind Ableitungssuffixe.

h in fínn. halava, halaja kann möglicherweise durch den Einfluß von halea 'gräulich, bleich' erklärt werden.

Möglicherweise unter dem Einfluß des anlautenden s´ hat im Mord. ein Übergang zum palatalen Vokalismus stattgefunden.

Ung. i ist das Ergebnis einer Entwicklung *a > * i > i.
Die heutige Bedeutung im Finn. ist sekundär.
Wog. T s´ån,lø 'fü´zfa; Weide' (s-Laute 56) gehört aus lautlichen Gründen nicht hierher.
Das früher hiermit verbundene selk. hal-be, sai-ba 'Eberesche, Vogelbeerbaum; Ebereschenbeere, (Beitr. 216) kann weder auf Grund seines Vokalismus noch seiner Bedeutung hierher gehören.

and Pokorny *sal-
2. sal- ,schmutziggrau', auch (nach der Farbe) zur Bezeichnung des Salzes (s. 1. sal-), der Grauweide und des Speichels;
sal-wo-, sa:lo-, schmutzfarben';
sal(i)k- ,Weide'.
A. Aind. dehnstufig sa:ra-, sa:la- ,grau' =
ags. so:l ,schmutzig, dunkel',
ndd. saul ds.;
air sal und sa(i)le f. ,Schmutz',
saluch ,schmutzig' =
abret. haloc, cymr. halog ds.;
cymr. sal ,ärmlich, krank' ist frz. Lw.;
B. sal-wo- in
aisl. so,lr ,schmutzig',
so,l n. ,eine Art Alge';
ahd. salo ,trübe, schmutziggrau',
ags. salu ds.,
ndl. zaluw ,dunkelgelb';
mhd. sal, Gen. salwes ,Schmutz';
cymr. salw ,ärmlich, niedrig' (das s- von sal, s. oben),
acorn. halou ,stercora';
russ.-ksl. slavo-oc^ije ,Blauäugigkeit',
russ. solovój ,isabellenfarben'.
C. Lat. sali:va f. ,Speichel', daraus
air. saile, cymr. haliw ds.
D. Lat. salix ,Weide' =
mir. sail, Gen. sa(i)lech, cymr. usw. helyg-en ds.;
abrit. ON Salico-du:non, gall. PN Salicilla;
ahd. sal(a)ha, mhd. salhe, nhd. Salweide;
ags. sealh m., aisl. selja ,Weide' (*salhjo:n).

That's not good. The whole family is in involved in both cases. And all UEW has to say is 'cf.'

(BTW Danish 'savl' "saliva", guessed, with '?', to be from 'a side form' *sak- of *sag- "humidity", seems to suggest a substrate word *saG-l- instead, which could > *sal- or (metathesis) *sal-G-, and be related to (UEW)
säje 'Eiter, Fäulnis; eitern, verfaulen' U, and
sewe- (seGe-) 'essen' FU')

> Also, if you're suggesting that these kind of words would actually
> be loans between Gmc/BF, this is clearly not the case here since
> both words survive separate.

I'm not particular to Germanic wrt. these cognates between IE and Germanic. Remember also that the fact that some Baltic Finnic dialect was spoken in eastern Poland means we don't have to assume every time loans from Scandinavian (which in any case isn't its Urheimat) Germanic to Finnish to explain BF - Germanic cognates.

> Oh, and I forgot to add, the original meaning of *s'äla- is "to
> crack", in which function it also remains.

Which means either FU/Uralic or a substrate to it was the original donor.

> > > > I add
> > > > Lerchner
> > > > Studien zum NWGermanischen Wortschatz
> > > > 'pit, peddik "merg, zaadkorrel; kracht"
> > > (etc.)
> > >
> > > Stretching the semantics here. I don't think this can be related
> > > to "pitch", "resin", "pine".
> > >
> >
> > I disagree.
> > Pokorny *pei-, *pi- "fat" etc. (I'd say, rather *pi(:)-)
> >
> > Torsten
>
> Via an indirect derivational link

What's that?

> and a variety of suffixes - maybe. But not directly to the "resin"
> cluster (the different medial also prohibits that).

I've explained how to get rid of the reconstructed BF *-s^-, after that, no problem.


Torsten