--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >(GK) Give me any professional archaeologist who says the same
> > > > thing about your "Sarmatian incursion" fantasy.
> > >
> > > (TP)They don't seem to even consider the possibility, which,
> > > given the inhumation on both sides, seems strange to me.
> > >
> > > GK: That's because you are an opinionatedly ignorant ideologue
> > > who cannot or will not grasp any concept or evidence which
> > > seems dangerous to your prejudices.
> >
> > The usual personal smear. So if I was not an opinionatedly etc I
> > would not find it strange that they don't consider the
> > possibility?
> > If it's so obvious those Germanic inhumation graves are not
> > Sarmatian, surely professional archaeologists could waste five
> > lines on refuting it?
>
> ****GK: Of course, catering to the whims of peripheral dilettantes
> should be a professional's first priority.****
This is your best shot? Surely, if those professional archaeologists find the hypotheses introduced by outsiders such a nuisance, one course of action they might contemplate would be to refute them. They haven't. Why?
>
> > >GK: No evidence of a scientific nature matters to you if
> > > it conflicts with your ideological prejudices. You're only
> > > interested in what you can somehow twist into your fable. If it
> > > can't be done, it is dismissed, ignored, or laughed off.
> > > Constantly, and systematically.
> >
> > (TP)You had hoped to drag me into a protracted discussion about
> > the Romanicity or Sarmaticity or the 'Golden Cemetery' graves, I
> > suppose.
>
>
> ****GK: I have no interest in "dragging you" into anything my dear fellow.****
>
>
> > The main thing for me is that they prove
>
> ****GK: ... nothing at all, until we've looked at the particulars.
And now you think you found grounds for a cease and desist?
> The Veselovskyi thesis is pretty clear.
Shchukin:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64635
He has a further note on the 'Zolotoe kladbishche', the "Golden Cemetery":
'*** It was possibly this wave of nomads which brought to Eastern Europe the fashion for gold objects in the animal style, lavishly decorated with turquoise. In the east these objects are amply represented in the "Siberian Collection" of Peter I 31, and in the materials of the excavation of the necropolis at Tillya-tepe in northern Afghanistan 32. In Siberia the tradition of the turquoise-golden animal style is rooted in the very deep past. From the 1st century AD such objects started to appear in the barrows of "The Golden Cemetery" and in other burials of the Kuban region, as well as along the lower reaches of the Don, where the most luxurious samples come from the barrows "Khokhlatch" and "Sadoviy" 33. This style is also known in Transcaucasia 34, it penetrated into the Dnieper valley35, and further to the west. Two rich burials - a male and a female one - were recently discovered near the village of Porogi in the middle Dniester valley, on the left bank of that river. The objects of the turquoise-golden style from these burials have parallels with the finds from "Khokhlatch" and Tillya-tepe; on some of them there is the tamga-sign of Inismei(?), the heir and successor of Farzoi.
The tamgas of both rulers are also present on the objects from the rich burial in the barrow "Kashava Drahana" in Bulgaria 36. Of especial interest in this complex is the long sword of distinctly oriental provenance. The suspension loops of its scabbard are made of nephrite in the style of the Chinese Han dynasty. As for the other decorative details of the scabbard, they are executed in the turquoise-golden Sarmatian animal style, though, instead of turquoise, green glass was used. The buried man had worn a Roman bronze helmet-mask and armour, including trousers with metal plates of a Sarmatian armoured cavalry warrior. The burial was dated to the "mid-first century AD", but a more likely date is the second half of that century. It is hard to say whether this set of weapons got into Thracia during the Roxolanian raid of 69 AD, in the course of the raid of Platinus Silvanus against the Sarmatians of king Farzoi, or by some other means.
...
31. Artamonov M.I.
Sokrovishcha sakov.
Moskva, 1973.
32. Sarianidi V.
The Golden Hoard of Bactria.
From Tillya-tepe Excavations in Northern Afghanistan. Leningrad, 1985.
33. Klein L.S.
Sarmatskij tarandr i vopros o proishozhdenii Sarmatov. In:
Skifo-sibirskij zverinyj stil v iskusstve narodov Evrazii.
Moskva, 1976, p. 228-235;
Raev B.A. Roman Imports in the Lower Don Basin. -
BAR. International Ser. 278, 1986.
Pl. 34, 35.
34. Lordkipanidze O.A., Mikeladze T.K., Khukhtaishvili D.D. Gonijskij klad.
Tbilisi. 1980.
35. Shilov V.P.
Zaporozhskij kurgan
(K voprosu o pogrebenijah aorskoj znati) -
Sovetskaja arheologija, 1983,
N 1, p. 178-193.
36. Buyukliyev Kh.
Trakijskijat mogilen nekropol pri Chatalka,
Starozagorskij okrug. -
Razkopki i pruchvanija.
1986, kn. 16.'
Apparently the "Kashava Drahana" barrow (note 36) is the C^atalka site mentioned in another post.
> Kuchkin, on the other hand,
> could well be in one of his occasional "quandoque dormitat" phases
> (which does not derogate from the excellence of his other
> analyses).
Who the hell is Kuchkin, and what does he stand for, and why are you trying to drag him into this discussion?
> THAT is why it's important to look at the evidence directly.
> Veselovskyi is the primary investigator here. Kuchkin did no digs
> and only reacted to Veselovskyi. We have to have the latter's
> descriptions in order to see whether Kuchkin's doubts are
> justified.
I get it that this Kuchkin has doubts about something, whatever it is.
> Mere "authority" is insufficient here. ****
Huh? That was a first.
> > that in that area Romans
> > could become so Sarmatized, or Sarmatians so Romanized, that you
> > can't make out any which particular Sarmatian ethnos they
> > belonged to. That fact means I don't have to assign any
> > particular Sarmatian ethnos to the Germanic inhumation graves,
> > Romanized Sarmatian / Sarmatized Roman will do.
>
> ****GK: And that is precisely the premature conclusion
Any conclusion you don't like is premature.
> which needs to be avoided,
By getting a cease and desist by any means available to you.
> but which you gleefully adopt because it's in line
> with your prejudice.****
Projection, as usual.
I can only repeat what I said before: apparently there existed peoples so difficult to pin down ethnically within the greater Sarmatian heading that their graves are similar to the Germanic inhumation burials. Discuss on to your heart's content.
Torsten