RE : [tied] Re: North of the Somme

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "caotope" <johnvertical@...> wrote:

>
> > > > But I do have nice etymology for ON maðkr, Da. maddike, Sw.
> > > > mask, mark "maggot", I could give you.
> > >
> > > Shoot, you kno you want to.
> > >
> > Pokorny
> > 1. math- oder moth- in Worten für nagendes, beißendes Gewürm oder
> > Ungeziefer ? ?
> > Arm. mat´il ,Laus'; got. maþa, m. ahd. mado, ags. maða ,Wurm,
> > Made', aisl. maþkr ds., aschwed. matk, finn. Lw.
> > matikka ,Würmchen'.
> >
> > Standard stuff. Note the Armenian form.
> >
> > From
> > Pokorny's
> > I. mol- (auch smel-), mel&- : mle:-,
> > etc
> >
> > add
> >
> > ahd. mil(i)wa ,Milbe' (*melwjo);
> > got. malo: n., aisl. mo,lr (*molu-)
> > ,Motte (mehlmachendes Tierchen');
> > abg. molI (*moli-) ds.,
> > arm. dial. m&GmóG (aus *mol/mol/) ,Motte';
> >
> > OK too.
> >
> > and
> >
> >
> > Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian Languages:
> >
> > Common Kartvelian
> > *ma-t.l- 'worm': Georg. mat.l- 'worm';
> > Megr. munt.ur-; Laz munt.u(r)-, munt.r-; Svan m&t..
> > The lexeme is well attested in Old Georgian (mat.li mati ara
> > daesrulebis 'their worm dieth not' Mk. 9.48). It must be taken to
> > be a nominal derivative with a prefix ma- from the verb stem
> > *t.l- 'to gnaw (about worms)'. Georgian l and Zan ur regularly
> > reflect an old l. The original vowel underwent a change a > o > u
> > in Megrelian in proximity to the labial. The vocalism of the Svan
> > form needs explanation.
> >
> >
> > Now look at the distribution. Kartvelian, Armenian, Germanic, and
> > the word is derivable in Kartvelian only.
> >
> > That looks kinda solid.
>
> Kartvelian > Armenian looks solid. Go on, where did the *-l
> disappear in Germanic,

*matl- > *mat- as well as *matl- *mal-.

> and where do the Swedish -r-, -s- come from?

As I wrote about spirantization:

*mat-k- (diminutive -k-) > maþ-k > (þ > s before stop) *mask- >
*maz&k- > mark- vel sim.

The (þ > s before stop) rule removes -þt- (-st-) from rescue (generalization) attempts from non-spirantized paradigm forms; this explains also the ppp *-t-t- > *-s-t- in Celtic, Germanic and Italic.

> And what does the 2nd form from Pokorny with -l- but no -t- have to
> do with this?

See above.

> Other than that the Armenian could apparently be from the next
> Kartvelian form rather than IE. (Unless it's IE > Armenian >
> Kartvelian, but isn't the development from *5 (velar *l) to *G too
> late for that?)

I was thinking more like
Georgian > (loan) Armenian,
Georgian > (loan) Germanic (and FV?).

> > But, complication:
> >
> > Common Kartvelian(?) *mG- 'moth(?)': Georg. mG-il- 'moth, a small
> > worm'; Svan mG-ul 'insect'.
> > The word is found in Old Georgian: arca mGilman
> > ganrq.unis... 'neither moth corrupteth...' Lk. 12.33. The Georgian
> > and Svan cognates have different derivational affixes (the final l
> > of the inherited stem could not have been preserved in Svan).
>

Torsten