Re: That old Ariovistus scenario.

From: tgpedersen
Message: 64289
Date: 2009-06-28

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, gknysh@... wrote:
>
>
> --- On Sat, 6/27/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
>
> > > How would you account for the movement of Croats from Tanais to
> > > Southern Slavland?
> >
> > GK: In the first place one cannot even prove that there was any
> > such movement. The Bosporan inscription refers to an individual
> > with a hellenized Iranic name. We have no other evidence of
> > "Croats" in that area at that time (3rd c. AD).

That Haplotype Ia (Tanais, Croatia, Scandinavia) and Ic (Tanais,
Scandinavia) distribution has to be explained somehow.


>
> > > GK: My view is that defensive set-ups ("croatias")
> >
>
> > GK: I don't have my notes on hand, but remember that that there
> > is a Slovak verb where "croat" (something like "khorovaty se" if
> > memory serves) means "to defend" one's self
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59285
>
>
>
> Gol/a,b:
>
> The Origin of the Slavs, pp. 323-328
>
> 'In the above discussion of the Iranian loanwords in Slavic I have
> omitted proper names, because their etymology usually entails more
> difficulties and uncertainties than that of common nouns. There is
> however, an ethnicon that for serious phonemic and morphologicical
> reasons seems to be of Iranian origin: the ethnicon *XUrvate/i,
> i.e., S-C Hrváti, Hrvate in older sources (nom. plur.), Hrvâtâ
> (gen. plur.), and Hrvatin (nom. sing. in older sources).
> Since the Iranian etymology of this ethnonym is only a hypothesis,
> on equal footing with other hypotheses about its Slavic and
> Germanic origin, I feel obliged to devote a separate excursus to
> this problem.
>
> ****GK: Golomb's interesting hypothesis has nothing to do with your
> notion that Charudes=Croats=Slavs

I never said it did. But it does presuppose an intermingling of Slav
and Bastarnian speakers.

> (he holds Bastarnian to be Germanic BTW).
No,
'the PGermc. dialect of the Bastarnians'
he holds it to be a dialect of of PGmc., which by defintion is the
origin of the Germanic languages, thus he holds Bastarnian to be a
Para-Germanic language.'


> I agree with him in positing the "Croat" phenomenon as originating
> north of the Carpathians, but associate it with Avar state-
> building.****

Proof?
>
> > > were organized by the Avars along their northern borders (in
> > > the Carpathians and beyond) against the looming Turkic threat.
>
> >
>
> > GK: Sometime in the 570's.
>
> >
>
> > > The leading elements were imported from the east and settled
> > > among Slavs. Their ethnicity is open to debate: you can try
> > > etymologizing the names of the rulers' ancestors from the
> > > account in Constantine Porphyrogenitus.
> >
> > GK: (from memory) There were five names (3 "brothers" and two
> > "sisters) None seemed particularly Slavic.
>
>
> We've been there. I didn't make much headway with them.
>
> ****GK: Correction. FIVE brothers (Kluk, Lobel, Mukhlo, Kosjenc,
> Horvat) The sisters were Tuga and Buga. I have a feeling one might
> find Turkic meanings in some of these.****

The names look vaguely like those Slovenian words
Joz^ef S^avli — Matej Bor
Unsere Vorfahren die Veneter
use to 'prove' the Slavicness of the Veneti.



BTW, here's another attempt at interpreting the Croat name:
*xaruG-at-
from the Germanic/Mingrelian-Laz/Ossetic/Semitic *xarug- plus -at,
discussed by Gol/a,b.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/63992
http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/HERG.html
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/54653
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/54642

cf.
de Vries
'Ho,rðar mpl. 'bewohner des gebietes am Hardangerfjord',
lat. Harudes,
gr. Kharou~des (Ptolemaios),
vgl. auch Arochi (falls statt Arothi) bei Jordanes und
den herulischen PN. Aroúth (= *Haruþ) bei Prokop;
run. schw. Haruþs (g. sg. Rök c. 800. als PN.),
adä. Harthæsyssel, ndä. Harsyssel (A. Johansson APhS 9, 1934, 25-37).
— > air. Hirotha, Hiruaith (Marstrander NVA 1915 Nr 5, 56-8, der
Hiruaith als irisches sagenland betrachten möchte, das seit der
Wikingerzeit mit Norwegen verbunden sein sollte).
— ae. Hæredas VN., as. Hardago: PN.
— Neben *haruþ auch *hariþ, vgl. norw. inselname Herðla.
— Wohl zu
ae. harað, hared 'wald' in ON.,
mnd. hart 'wald',
ahd. harød 'bergwald' (...),
also weiter zur sippe von ho,rgr.
— Nach IEW 532 eher zu air. caur (< *karuts) 'held'.
— vgl. Harðangr.'


Torsten