Re: That old Ariovistus scenario.

From: tgpedersen
Message: 64267
Date: 2009-06-26

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 6/25/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> > That's almost too funny. You knew zilch about the archeology of
> > Germania
> >
> > GK: Again, the usual red herring. The archaeology and "factual
> > events" I am referring to are those of Easternmost Europe. in the
> > first c. BCEl
>
> Well, say so, since the part from Przeworsk onwards is close to
> being standard now.
>
> ****GK: Who else besides you believes that Germanic originated with
> the carriers of Przeworsk?****

No one, actually, someone got to be the first. I think I'll make a handsome bronze bust. I am also modest and have many more appealing characteristics.

>
> It would rather seem that you have realized you can't fight the
> part between Przeworsk and Wetterau, since you realized it is now
> or will be communis opinio.
>
> ****GK: I think you're the only one here in permanent conflict with
> communis opinio.

Yes, most other people feel uncomfortable having opinions which differ from those of their contemporaries. But a few daring individuals gaze boldly over the horizons of the centuries.

> Again, who else believes that Germanic spread westwards from
> Przeworsk with Ariovistus?

As I said, that is a discovery I made, and I am rather proud of it.

> AFAIK communis opinio remains that Germanic is to be primarily
> associated with Jastorf in the BCE period, and that other
> Continental cultures become Germanic to the extent that Jastorf
> moves eastward from the 4th c. BCE.****

I don't disagree with that. I think Proto-Proto...Germanic came that way (perhaps) and Proto-Germanic was spoken in Przeworsk, in the sense that all the Germanic languages we know some contens of were descended from that.

>
> >
> > There were Charudes
> >
> > GK: Who were not Slavs.
>
> Baseless assumption again. The genetics matches, and people change > languages.
>
> ****GK: Priceless. The Charudes did not speak Slavic, but they had
> "Slavic genetics"? (:=)))??? ****

What on earth are you talking about?
Let me see if you understand this one: Everywhere the *xarud- name
appears you find high percentages of haplotype I (Oppenheimer's
'Ivan').

> >
> > GK: I would accept this. The standard view is that originally
> > the "Croats" were a non-Slavic (perhaps Iranic?) group which
> > later mingled with some Slavs and transferred their name to them
> > (something akin to the "Bulgar" phenomenon, and I could give
> > other examples).
> >
> > Tanis is another area with high concentration of haplogroup I.
> >
> > GK Whatever that proves it doen't prove Slavdom"
>
> No, but it proves Haruditude.
>
> ****GK: I think I should end my current visit to the Torstein
> asylum.****
>
> Some well-known linguist, I forgot which, characterized
> Proto-Slavic as a language with no surviving concepts above that of
> basic survival, which would fit Shchukin's scenario. But every
> language has a predecessor, and the Charudes could have a language
> of that type.
> If they were a social and ethnic group before the formation of
> Shchukin's purely Slavic culture, they might have been farmers in
> an area teeming with migrant robbers of other ethnicity. You
> wouldn't discover them archaeologically that way. Actually this
> would correspond to the situation in eg. the later Austria-Hungary:
> Germans (or German-speakers) in the cities, Slavic-speakers in the
> country). It worked then for centuries, so why couldn't it have
> been so even earlier?
>
> ****GK: Slavic existed in 400,000 BCE as "grunts and wheezes". I
> can't refute that Torsten. (:=)))*****

The Slavs grunt and wheeze? Where did this come from? Not from anything I wrote.

But a stray thought I had: First impressions last. This imagined first meeting between Slavs and Germans would form stereotypes of the other ethnos which lasted through centuries and culminated in the thought structures of Communism and Nazism, respectively. Reminds me of those couples who escalate a fight to the point of breaking apart, realizing later that what you said in a fight doesn't necessarily work on its own in the real world.


Torsten