Re: American Dutch dialects

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

> . . .
> >
> > But you forget one thing: the extreme mobility, albeit mostly one
> > way and once only, of American society at the time. If she
> > struck lucky, that school marm would find a husband so important
> > that he had actually studied on the east coast, or at least at the
> > local state university, where he would have been taught by
> > professors from the east coast.
> >
> > > My maternal grandfather was one of the local gentry, and later
> > > in life, was a schoolmaster. He spoke a softer more standard
> > > version of the local WV dialect. He said "tomato" instead of
> > > "mater", etc. but with the local intonation.
> > > Keep in mind that in the 1800s, the r-less Boston dialect was
> > > probably seen as the prestige dialect, but it certainly was not
> > > taught by schoolmarms in Appalachia and the Midwest.
> >
> > Well, you keep in mind that America always had two standards: one
> > New England / British one for blue-blooded Americans and one
> > 'true' American one for red-blooded Americans. On that point it
> > was similar to Norway in the 19th century: you can't use the
> > language of those you just freed yourself from, so to assert your
> > differentness you have to pick up habits from the bottom layer,
> > in Norway the dialects, in the USA, since there was no national
> > legitimacy to be gained from local dialects, from Low New York,
> > in my opinion, which would have had retroflex r's and r-colored
> > vowels at the time or Brooklynese wouldn't have /oI/ today. Place
> > a school marm in the loyalty conflict between the nationally
> > dubious and mostly breadless New England, and the blingbling of
> > New York; those are the two sociolects her successful
> > husband would have mastered, and you know what she will choose.
>
> The NY dialect is so different from the Midwest dialect, that most
> Americans pretty much lump it in with the Boston accent, and other
> NE r-less dialects --unless they've traveled. I doubt that most
> non-East Coast Americans could tell them apart.

Can or could? The scenario I claim says New York talk at that time
would have been as different from today's as its ethnic composition
is. Labov says NYC was r-ful. Brooklynese /oi/ says NYC was r-ful. If
you want to shot down my scenario, you should look 19th century NYC
and its talk.

> The Midwest was interesting in that most of the upper class was
> home spun. There weren't too many easterners who went there. More
> often, it was the other way around --the Rockefellers and the
> Bushes came from the Midwest. East Coast money tended to go the
> Pacific Coast, into mines, etc. or South, into cotton and
> railroads. In the Midwest, fortunes came through hard work or
> invention, e.g. Edison and Ford.

They might have been home-spun, but they were refined elsewhere. A
Midwest professional would never be more that a couple of steps (and
down the ladder) away from his colleagues on the East Coast. They had
conferences then too.

> > > > And since the Sinter Klaas -> Santa Claus plays a large role
> > > > in the American pantheon (just kidding), the channel which
> > > > brought that deity from the Dutch would be conducive to
> > > > language peculiarities too.
> > > > Remember that similar religions imply cultural influence.
> > > >
> > > > BTW I read in the archive that according to Miguel the
> > > > retroflex r occurs in both Leids and Rotterdams.
> > >
> > > Yes, but they also picked up Chivari, etc. from the French and
> > > I don't think we picked up our /r/ from them either.

I don't think I claimed that, in which case you would have had two
(three?) r's. Substrate means you might, not must have picked up
something from it.

> > Erh, okay. Who they and what on earth is Chivari?
> >
> What, they don't have it in Denmark?

Never heard of it.

> It's a custom from the Midwest and the Mississippi Valley where the
> bride and groom's family stay up all night banging pans and
> singing. My family, being from WV, didn't have this and it's
> strictly small town, in any case. It goes by various forms and
> spellings: Chivari, Sharivaree, etc.

Does it go back to the Louisiana Purchase?

OK, so that's a local custom, but Santa is as Generally American as
the language we were discussing.

> You see traces of it when the groom's friends use spray frost to
> write messages on the car, tie tin cans to the bumper, etc.

They do that here too, for whatever reason. Other than that, causing a
ruckus had to do with Christmas and New Year. Sw. 'julklapp'
"Christmas gift" is called so because people would bang on people's
door and then throw in the gift.


Torsten