--- In
cybalist@... s.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@ ...> wrote:
> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
>
> > From: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ ...>
> > Subject: [tied] Re: American Dutch dialects
> > To:
cybalist@... s.com> > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 3:40 PM
> > > Perhaps NYC English has a Dutch substrate --e.g. "Dem bums don'
> > > know nuttin' 'bout dat." "Put da erl in da cah." "Flush dem
> > > toids in da terlet."
> >
> > Where do you get that idea from? There is nothing Dutch about the
> > development /&r/ > /&I/. On the contrary it shows later immigrants
> > struggling with the Dutch/American
retroflex 'r'.
>
> New York English, until very recently did not have final /r/,
> except in words such as "terlet" and "erl" --watch your reruns of
> Archie Bunker /a:chiy b@...@/ in "All in the Family"
I got that the first time.
In what way does that contradict what I said?
> > The only other languages I know which uses 'them' as an article is
> > colloquial Swedish:
> > 'Them thar' mountains' = 'Dom där bergen'
>
> The Swedes were in upper Delaware and the Philly area very early on
> 1638-54, in Cristiana and Wilmington DE, SW NJ and SE PA well
> before the British colonized the region c. 1680.
I know that. I was not suggesting a Swedish substrate in New York of
course. I was saying that feature can't be caused by a Dutch substrate
like you proposed.
> >
> > > But standard US English did not spread from NYC, it
spread
> > > from the Philly area, Lancaster Co. PA and points west with the
> > > arrival of the Scots-Irish and Germans, the Pennsylvania Dutch.
What is you reference on the origin of US English?
> > Ellis Island, Pa.?
> > Do you have numbers on that?
> >
> >
> > Torsten
>
> Standard US English had already spread out across the country long
> before Ellis Island was opened in 1892, even before Castle Garden,
> Manhattan in 1855, Standard US English, i.e. Midwestern, developed
> in the early 1800s from SE PA English, with some contributions from
> Appalachian (which also originated in part from Lancaster Co. PA
> --but with some southern aspects), and also some northern
> contributions.
What northern contributions?
> Midwestern English probably kept close to the standard because of
> the
strong educational system of the German immigrants who
> dominated the area and learned standard English in school.
Close to what standard? Standard U.S. English or standard British
English? As far as I know Midwestern English has retroflex r's too.
You still haven't given me the numbers on immigration thru Baltimore
and NYC respectively.
Torsten