Re: [tied] Re: Franco-Provençal

From: Arnaud Fournet
Message: 63207
Date: 2009-02-19

> You may classify Uralic languages with them if you want.
> A.
> ==========
I don't understand. Please, explain and exemplify.

I examined Sicilian and other Romance varieties on the basis of three
criteria :
I wrote :
For example, in the case of Sicilian versus standard Italian,
If we ask basic phonological questions about Sicilian :
Q1 Does this variety of Latin-based language have geminate consonants ?
Q2 Does this " " " accept word-final consonants ?
Q3 Does this " " " accept consonant clusters ?
These basic questions can be asked about any language.
They are not prefabricated to show Sicilian should be considered Italian.

Q1 : Which Uralic languages have geminates ?
it's mainly a feature of Finnic, Saami.
Moksha-Mordvin has some morphologically conditionned geminates.
Yurak also does.

Q2 : Which Uralic languages have word-final consonants ?
Finnic does not like that so much.
No problem in other languages.
It seems (southern) Samoyed has a marked preference for vowel-final nouns.

Q3 : Which Uralic languages have consonant clusters ?
I guess only Mordvin accepts more than three consonants in a row, including
in initial position.
Ostyak-Vogul also accepts heavy clusters, like -Nkw-
Other languages avoid more than two consonants in a row.

With these three criteria, you can classify Uralic.

Another interesting criterion is :
Does it accept heterorganic nasal clusters ? (like N-p or m-t)


>> I totally agree they're practically the same language, but would all
>> the Croatians/Serbs? While Czechs wouldn't mind if you called their
>> language a dialect of "Czechoslovak", many Slovaks would be quite
>> angry, I guess. Yes, silly nationalism, but that's irrelevant. Those
>> languages have certain status, different phonologies, literary
>> traditions etc. Easternmost Slovak, by the way, wouldn't be understood
>> in westernmost Bohemia, or with serious difficulties.
> ===========
> It depends what one calls "serious"

Well, if you need something urgently and don't have the few necessary
days to get used to it, you won't understand it.

> Anyway it seems these people are not very interested in understanding each
> other.

How have you come to that conclusion???


Well, you were previously in only one country
and you opted for two.
This seems to show a strong desire to disrupt communication.


> Moksha Mordvin does not have vowel harmony but Erzia Mordvin does.
> This criterion is irrelevant when you compare Sicilian with Std Italian or
> Mandarin with Cantonese.
> A.
> =====

Of course. Hence, this criterion clearly cannot be a part of the
universal definition.


Unless you add a check-list of typological criteria.


>> Are Czech, Slovak and Polish dialects of the same language?
> ======
> My knowledge of them is about zero
> so I cannot answer.
> I suppose that the different places of demarcative stress,

Bohemian Czech - initial stress
Moravian Czech dialects (northern) - penultimate stress

Why is it Czech then ?

It could be a Polish dialect.


> plus the absence
> or presence of long vowels

Bohemian Czech, southern Moravian Czech - long vowels present
northern Moravian Czech - long vowels absent

Same as above.
Why is it not a Polish dialect ?


> plus different consonantal systems, all this must
> make intercomprehension fairly uneasy.

I understand Polish quite well. There's an interesting dialect near my
hometown which renders standard Czech /st/ and /st^/ as /s^c^/.
Together with the typical penultimate stress, it sounds much like
Polish to the Czech ear. The problem is that there have been
transitional dialects between Czech and Polish, Czech and Slovak and
Slovak and Polish.

Piotr, what's your opinion concerning these issues?

Maybe they are not far from being dialects of the same language then, even
though this language does not have a name.


> They say here that Kashubian is not Polish, so I suppose it's worse with
> Czech.
> but here
> Czech is similar to and mutually intelligible with Slovak and, to a lesser
> extent, to Polish and Sorbian.

Yes, we who come from the north of Moravia understand Polish fairly well.

> I cannot judge by myself.
> I noticed :
> "Smrz pln skvrn zvlhl z mlh." meaning "Morel full of spots dampened from
> fogs".

That's too literal. It says that a "morel", which is a species of
mushroom, with its spotty top grew damp due to the ever-lasting foggy
weather. ;-)

> Does it mean the same as "Colorless green dreams sleep furiously" ?
> A.
> ======

I doubt that. The sentence should exemplify the syllabic liquids, I
suppose. Try "strč prst skrz krk, plk' vlk, zhlt trs vrb, grg', prd',
zmlk'" ("put your finger through your throat, utter'd the wolf,
swallow'd the willow clump, gurked, farted and shut up") [str*c^ pr*st
skr*s kr*k pl*k vl*k, zHl*t tr*s vr*p, gr*k, pr*t, zml*k] (* =
syllabicity marker, H = voiced h). :-)