Re: [tied] Re: Franco-Provençal

2009/2/19 Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...>:

>>>
>>> For example, in the case of Sicilian versus standard Italian,
>>
>> Precisely. "IN THE CASE" of "SICILIAN" versus "STANDARD ITALIAN".
>>
>> You need to invent new rules from language to language. And that's
>> whence the problems arise.
>
> =========
>
> I don't think so.
>
> The criteria are fairly straightforward.
>
> A.
> ========

Yes, but they are language-specific. They are not universal, are they?
They are "objective" within the language or dialect continuum.

You complain about "relativistic approaches", but you're using one as
well, aren't you?

>
>> Are Croatian and Serbian separate languages or mere dialects of the
>> same language???
>> Are Czech and Slovak separate languages or mere dialects of the same
>> language???
>
> =======
>
> I would personally consider them dialects of the same language.
> The fact Croatian and Serbian are not written with the same alphabet does
> not make them two different languages.
>
> A.
> =======

I totally agree they're practically the same language, but would all
the Croatians/Serbs? While Czechs wouldn't mind if you called their
language a dialect of "Czechoslovak", many Slovaks would be quite
angry, I guess. Yes, silly nationalism, but that's irrelevant. Those
languages have certain status, different phonologies, literary
traditions etc. Easternmost Slovak, by the way, wouldn't be understood
in westernmost Bohemia, or with serious difficulties.

>>> I'm afraid those people who misuse the word "language" just forget how
>>> much
>>> is _shared_ by dialects of the same language and take secondary features
>>> as
>>> reasons to dismember these dialects into separate "languages". In fact,
>>> in
>>> that kind of approach, the word "dialect" no longer exists : it has been
>>> replaced by the word "language".
>>> I disagree with this misuse of the words "language" and "dialect".
>>
>> This is no misuse. The heart of the problem lies in the definitions
>> themselves and swadesh lists are not of much help here.
>
> ========
>
> You proposed no definition at all so far.
>
> A.
> =======

Because I don't believe there is a universally accepted (or
universally used) one. I would agree on any definition provided that
we all strictly adhere to it (which is apparently not the case - a
frustration we share here). Swadesh-list percentage will work fine
with me. Or we can try mutual intelligibility. It's a matter of
agreement, of convention, if you like.

What I'm talking about is mere observation. Divisions based on mutual
intelligibility are confused with divisions based on literary
traditions, political motivation etc. I'm just saying that's what the
situation's like.

>
>>
>>> A dialect is a particular variety of a language that displays a certain
>>> number of specific features, but nevertheless shares most other features
>>> with other dialects.
>>
>> So, which specific features do you have on mind?
>
> ========
>
> It depends on the languages.
> There are plenty of interesting cases.
>
> A.
>
> ========
>
>>
>> I mean, construct a definition that would be applicable to ALL
>> languages/dialects. Something we can test, really.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Petr
>>
> ========
>
> It's written above :
>
>>> A dialect is a particular variety of a language that displays a certain
>>> number of specific features, but nevertheless shares most other features
>>> with other dialects.
>
> Arnaud

"CERTAIN" number is what number exactly?
"SPECIFIC" features are which features precisely?
"MOST OTHER" are which features and how many of them?
"...with other dialects" is somewhat circular. The term defined cannot
be a part of definition itself.

Construct a definition that would be objective and precise
cross-linguistically rather than language-specifically.

And apply it to Serbocroat, Czechoslovak, German, Chinese, whatever.

Some have proposed that dialect intelligibility should be above 90%,
for instance.
Others have proposed that dialects should have 81-100% on the swadesh list.

So, what are your universal criteria? What do you propose to use? Is
Chinese a single language? Are Czech, Slovak and Polish dialects of
the same language?

Best,

Petr