Re: [tied] Franco-Provençal

From: Octavià Alexandre
Message: 63091
Date: 2009-02-17

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

>
> One could argue that but one could also argue that Occitan is Hispano-Romance as well --see the chart in the Facts on File book on language
>
No way, nor Occitan and Catalan are Hispano-Romance. This debate has run over decades but now is over, politics apart.

> >
> > To me, modern Hispano-Romance is divided in 4 groups:
> > Galician-Portuguese, Leonese, Castilian (standard Spanish
> > and its
> > varieties) and Aragonese.
>
> Yes, 4 groups, 5 with Catalan, each with 2 or 3 languages.
> So we get:
> 1. Galician, Fala, Portuguese
>

To me, Galician and Portuguese are two different varieties of the same languages, the former strongly influenced by Spanish since the Middle Ages.

> 2. Asturian, Leonese, Extremeño, Mirandés

Asturian and Leonese are different names for the same language. Mirandese is an isolated dialect of Leonese and "Extremeño" simply doesn't exist, although there's an isolated Galician-Portuguese dialect along the Portuguese border.

> 3. Castillian, Murcian, and a transitional Aragonese-Castillian dialect near Burgos, I forgot the name but there are dictionaries

Castilian Spanish has several regional varieties, covering territories were Leonese, Basque, Aragonese and even Catalan were once spoken. The main regional dialect of Spanish in the Peninsula is Andalusian. 

> 4. Aragonese
> and I'd add
> 5. Catalan, Valenciano, Balear

As I said, Catalan DOESN'T belong here. The tripartite division you quote is a political one, and has little to do with linguistic facts.

> plus 4 or 5 argots such as Quinqui, Caló, etc.

Properly speaking, Caló/Romanó is an Indic language spoken among Gypsies, although in the Peninsula has long been superseded by Romance, leaving a Caló substrate. Spanish slang is rich in Caló words, for example jalar 'to eat', achantar 'to shut up', queli 'house', mui 'mouth', pinrel 'foot', churumbel 'child', gachí 'woman', julay, julandrón 'ass-hole/gay', etc.

But Spanish has also Vasco-Caucasian substrate words, some of them only attested in slang: chorrar 'to steal', currar 'to beat' (standard zurrar), etc.