Re: Water, the common IE and Uralic stuff

----- Original Message -----
From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:17 PM
Subject: [tied] Water, the common IE and Uralic stuff





Various suspiciously similar water words in Uralic, Germanic, Italic.

Helimski
NW *o:nto : Undo, (?) Ondo, (?) Аndo; NW *o:ksi : -(o)ksа/-(o)ks^а
The original NW source of Fi. (arch. and dial.) vuo "stream, riverbed"
must be reconstructed after consideration of its FU cognates (SSA 3:
472) as *o:. A number of derivatives of this Finnish word function as
geographical terms or as toponyms, cf. vuoksi â?~flood, flow, high
tideâ?T, river Vuoksi, vuolle â?~current, eddy,
whirlâ?T, vuolas â?~rapid, abundant, violent [stream]â?T, etc. Besides,
Finnish has a suffix of nomina loci -nto (Hakulinen 1957: 159). The
data analysis in STRS I: 118 shows that this suffix belongs to the
common NW heritage; therefore it is possible to assume the former
existence of still another derivative (with a meaning from the same
semantic field), namely vuonto (*o:nto). As an appellative this
word is, according to dictionaries, unknown in Finnish, but cf. Vuonto
as the first part in the name Vuonnonkoski (rapids in the Tornionjoki
river, in the province of Ylitornio) and â?" with the parallelly
functioning suffix -nne < *-ntek â?" Vuonne in the name Vuonteensalmi
(lake, province Laukaa) (Suomi käsikirja: 1366).
On the other hand, the assumed *o:nto in the NW substratum finds its
probable continuations in several North Russian hydronyms with the
stem Undo- (lake Undozеro with river Undos^а e.a., see STRS II:
14022), probably also with the stem Ond(o)- (big lake Ond-ozеro in
Central Karelia). Ru. u regularly substitutes o: in relatively early
borrowings, cf. Suomi (*So:mi) : Old Ru. sumI "Finns", while the
diphthong uo that developed in Finnish and Karelian from *o:
can be rendered both by Ru. o and u (STRS I: 141). If we make a still
stronger assumption â?" namely, that during the earliest stages of
contacts the Old Novgorodian/Old Russian а (= Slavic a:, going back to
IE *o:, *a:) still preserved the "memory" of its sources and could
therefore substitute a foreign o:23, or that in certain substratum
dialects, the NW o: was pronounced as a non-diphthongal and
relatively open vowel, then the same source *o:nto can also explain
some toponyms with the stem Аnd(o)-, first of all, the big lake
Аndozеro with river Аndogа (to the south-west from Beloe Ozero).
Besides, some North Russian hydronyms in -(o)ksа/-(o)ks^а may contain
the determinative *o:ksi, which is etymologically identical with Fi.
vuoksi and with the river name Vuoksi, Kar. Vuoks^i (for relevant data
and for other possibilities to explain the hydronyms with this
determinative, see Mullonen 2002: 217â?"222; STRS II: 27â?"28).

======

Looks like *wo(n)d and variant *wol (with d > l)
IE.

A.
=======


22 This confirms Matveevâ?Ts conclusion (l.c.): â?oIn any case, the stem
und- obviously denotes something relevant from the viewpoint of
hydronymy, and must be of Finno-Ugric origin�.
23 Precisely this type of substitution is characteristic of
Slavic-Baltic contacts, including also the relatively recent ones:
Belor. gás^tа < Lith. *gos^ta (gós^tauta, goËos^telka) â?~Lychnis
chalcedonica
L.â?T, Belor. skаrác^ and Pol. skaracz < Lith. skaroËoc^ius â?~towelâ?T
(Nepokupnyj 1976: 185, 195). The phenomenon of "preserved memory"
(when the substitution may follow a historically correct pattern,
though it looks unnatural from the viewpoint of synchronic phonetic
values) must also be taken into consideration when dealing with the
contacts among individual branches of the NW language groups, cf. the
examples of phonetically anomalous, but "historically correct"
adaptation of Lapp loanwords in Finnish, see Saarikivi (2004b: 193).

Trask, p. 336
'At the same time, he does not entirely rule out the possibility that
this second element might in fact be a Latin *onna 'watercourse,
spring', which is abundantly attested in toponyms in Gascony and which
appears to derive from a substrate language.'


Pokorny
akwa- (richtiger &kwa:): e:kw- ,Wasser, FluÃY'.
Lat. aqua ,Wasser, Wasserleitung'
(davon aquilus ,dunkel', aquila ,Adler', eigentl. ,der Dunkelfarbige',
aquilo: ,Nordwind', eigentl. ,der den Himmel Verdunkelnde') =
got. ahva f. ,FluÃY, Gewässer', aisl. ó,, ags. e:a, as. nhd. aha, nhd.
Ache ds.
(germ. *ahwo:, davon abgeleitet *ahwjo:, *awjo ,die vom Wasser Umgebene'
in aisl. ey f. ,Insel, Aue', ags. íeg, ahd. -ouwa, -awa, mhd. ouwe f.
,Wasser, Halbinsel im Flusse, wassereiches Wiesenland', nhd. Aue,
vgl. afries. ei-land Insel', Sca(n)din-avia Kretschmer Gl. 17, 148 ff.),
russ. FlN Oká, pannon. ON Aquincum ,Ofen', apul. FlN Aquilo:, ven. ON
Aquileia (auch in Süddeutschland);
mit Ablaut. (idg. e:) dazu aisl. æ´gir (*e:kwyÏOs) ,Gott des Meeres',
ags. æ´g-weard ,Wache' an der See', êagor ,Meer, Flut' (der Anlaut
nach e:a);

=======
The connection between akwa and aquila "eagle" seems really ridiculous.
Aquila is to be cut a + kwi + la
Cf. Greek aisalos
and Salish (!) klallam bald eagle: k'wəy-Nsən screech owl: s-kwəy-əxw
Root is *kwi-

A.
=======


vielleicht hierher
ai. kam ,Wasser',
dak. PflanzenN koadáma: potamogeíto:n ;Wassersiedler' (*kwa-dhe:mn.),
poln. (nordill.) FlN Kwa.

Die Zugehörigkeit von hitt. e-ku-uz-zi (ekuzi) ,trinkt', 3. Pl.
a-ku-wa-an-zi, scheint mir nicht unwahrscheinlich.
Hierzu auch toch. AB yok-tsi ,trinken'.
Air. oiche, ,Wasser' existiert nicht; cymr. aig ,Meer' ist eine
Neubildung zu eigion aus lat. oceanus.
WP. I 34 f., WH. I 60, 848, Feist 18 f., Pedersen Hittitisch 128,
Tocharisch 190.


9. aw(e)-, awed-, awer- ,benetzen, befeuchten, flieÃYen'.

a) aw(e)-, awent-:
Hisp. FlN Avo[s] > span. Ave, ON A[v]o-briga;
gall. FlN Aveda > prov. Avèze (Gard), Avisio portus (Alpes-mar.);
ai. avatá-h. m. ,Brunnen' (*awn.tos), avatá-h. ,Zisterne' (mit
prakrit. t aus t),
ital. FlN Ave:ns im Sabinerland (davon Aventi:nus m. Hügel Roms?),
Aventia (Etrurien),
gall. Aventia, Quellnymphe von Aventicum > frz. Avenches (Schweiz),
zahlreiche FlN Avantia (*awn.tia:) > frz. Avance, La Vence, abrit.
*Avanti:sa: > cymr. Ewenni;
alit. FlN Avantà , lett. avuõts (*awontos) ,Quelle'.

b) awed-, aud-, u:d-; heteroklit. r/n-St. wédo:r, wÏOdo:r (Nom. Sg.),
udén(i) (Lok. Sg.), udnés (Gen. Sg.) ,Wasser', vgl. J. Schmidt Pl.
172ff.,

[...]

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What about your own substrates : Heve etc ?

A.

=======



UEW:
un,а 'Strom; strömen' FU
Finn. vuo 'Strom, Strombett', vuota- 'lecken, leck sein, Wasser
durchlassen, laufen, sickern; rinnen, flieÃYen';
est. voo 'Strömung, Wellengang', vooda- (vooan) 'lecken(intr.),
laufen, triefen' |

lapp. (Lind.â?"Ã-hrl.)
uwe, uvwe 'flumen placide manans, fluxus',
uvwete-, uwete- 'aquam accipere, perfluere (de navigiis)',
(T. I. Itk.: JSFOu. 32/3 : 57) N uvve (Gen. uve) 'flumen placide
labens, fluvius' |

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I really wonder how Saami uvve could ever correspond with Finnish vuo.

A.
========


ostj. (OL 118)
V oG, DN ow, O aw 'Strom',
V oGa-, DN ow-, O aw- 'strömen' |

wog. (Kann., mitg. Liim.: MSFOu. 127:178)
ow: TJ ow s^is^ew, LU ow s^is^a: 'stromabwärts' (s^is^ 'Rücken'),
(Kann.â?"Liim.: MSFOu. 134:14, 70, 92) KU P ow 'Strom', So. ow-
'strömen', (MSz.) N Ã¥w, Ã¥u 'Flut, Strom', Ã¥w- 'flieÃYen'.

Nomen-Verbum.

Sam.
jur. jiend?, jient? 'reiÃYend; Wirbel',
jen. Ch. bieddu? 'reiÃYende Stelle',
twg. bua 'reiÃYende Stelle im FluÃY' und
selk. B kü:n,e id. (Beitr. 290) können wegen des ursprünglichen
anlautenden *w nicht hierher gestellt werden.
...
Ernout-Meillet
u:meo:, -e:s, -e:re: être humide (surtout poét.).
Formes nominales et dérivés:
u:mor m.: humidité (abstr. et concret), élément liquide; liquide en
général, humeur. - Ancien (Pl.), classique, usuel.
u:midus: liquide, humide (s'oppose à terre:nus); umidita:s (tardif);
u:midulus; u:mido:, -a:s (Gloss.);
u:mectus (anté- et postclass. ), d'où u:mecto:, -a:s (surtout
poétique), u:mecta:tio:;
u:mesco:, -is (époq. imp.);
u:me:facio:; u:mifer; u:mificus, -fico:; u:mo:ro:sus (tardifs).
La graphie sans h est la plus correcte; mais l'étymologie populaire,
en rapprochant umor de humus, a doté ces mots d'un h adventice;
cf. Varr., L.L.5,34; humor hinc (scil.ex humo) ...
Pacuuius (363 E.) "terra ex<h>alat auram atque auroram humidam",
humectam; hinc ager uliginosus, humidissimus ; hinc udus, uuidus; hinc
sudor et udor.
Cf.M.L.4327 hu:mor, 4233 hu:midus; 4234 *hu:miga:re; exhumo:ra:re
(Cael. Aur.) 3013a.

Groupe, d'origine peu claire, comprenant aussi u:ueo:, u:ue:sco:,
u:uidus (u:dus), u:li:go:.
On rapproche gr. hugrós "humide", qui rappelle arm. oyc "frais", et
aussi v.isl. vo,kr "humide".
On partirait de *ug-sm-, ou *oug-sm-, et de *e/oug-w.
On ne saurait tracer une histoire précise.

u:ueo:, -e:s, -e:re: être humide. Attesté seulement au pop. u:ue:ns
(époque impériale).
Formes nominales et dérivés:
u:uor, Varr., L.L.5, 104: uuae ab uuore;
u:ue:sco:, -is: devenir humide (Lucr.);
u:uidus et u:dus: humide (attestée depuis Pl.; surtout poétique);
u:uidulus (Catull.);
u:uidita:s (tardif, rare);
u:do:, -a:s : humecter (tardif).
u:dor? : dans Varr., L.L. 5,24: hinc (scil. ex uerbo "humus") udus
uuidus; hinc sudor et udor,
si toutefois u:dor n'est pas la transcription du gr. ´ύδÏ?ρ.
V:uidus, u:dus ont cédé devant u:midus que soutenait le rapprochement
populaire avec humus.
Les emplois de ces formes sont rares, et presque uniquement poétiques;
u:uor, u:dor ne se trouvent pas ailleurs que dans Varron. Cf.
u:li:go:, et unda?'


UEW
wan´c´a ~ wac´a 'feuchter Schnee od. Eis' FU

Ernout-Meillet:
'unda, -ae f.: eau (considérée en tant que courante), onde, flot,


UEW:
wаð'ke 'kleiner FluÃY; Krümmung bzw. Strecke des Flusses zwischen zwei
Krümmungen' U

sam.
jur(60) Nj. wäej: jaxaw w. 'längere gerade Strecke des Flusses
zwischen zwei Krümmungen; пLÑ`со'.


Now since UEW mentions Lat. vallis, perhaps we should add that too as
potential loan:
Ernout-Meillet
'ualle:s et uallis, -is f.: val, vallée. Ancien, bien que non attesté
avant Cic; la Sententia Minuciorum (117 av.J.-C.) a déjà conuallis.
Panroman.

and cf.
UEW
'wаlа-2 'gieÃYen' FW
Finn. vala- 'gieÃYen';
kar. vala- (finn. od. kar.> lapp. K Kld. Not. va:lle-);
est. vala- |

mord. E M valo-* 'id., vergieÃYen, E valks, valf, M valfkä 'Rubel'.

Ostj. (224) V wal.&G- 'tropfen; flieÃYen (Wasser z.B. von einem Baum,
Dach, auf der Erde, einem Weg usw.; nicht im FluÃY); rinnen (SchweiÃY)'
(Sz. Kispál: NyK 53:239) kann wegen der engen dialektalen Verbreitung
und der abweichenden Bedeutung nicht hier eingeordnet werden.
Tscher. B wela- 'abfallen, langsam herabfallen (Bäume, Blätter, Zweige
usw.); ausflieÃYen (Flüssigkeit)' (Budenz: NyK 15:162; Sz. Kispál: NyK
53:239) gehört wegen des palatalen Vokalismus nicht in diesen
Zusammenhang,
Zu ung. olt 'löschen' und 'pfropfen' (Sz. Kispál: NyK 53:239 mit ?)
s. *oða- 'schlafen, liegen' FU bzw. *ale-(tte-) 'anstückeln,
hinzufügen, passen' Ug.'


It seems to me the only proto-root, whichever language it belongs
to, one can posit for this multitude, with any good conscience, is
*(a)n,W- "water".
Torsten

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I'm afraid there are many more than one root...

A.