Re: French phonetics

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
<fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
>
> > The problem is, in case, the lack of the [ts^] phoneme in French.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Francesco
> >
> ===========
>
> This phoneme definitely exists, not only in words like match which
> nicely translates into English as match,

'match' is an English loan in French.

> but in other words like tchatche, tchatcher,

"tchatche [of which the verb tchatcher is a derivative]: argot pied-
noir dérivé de l'espagnol chachara, 'conversation animée mais
futile' (de chacharear, 'bavarder')."

> pitchoune,

"Région. (Provence)... Mot prov. signifiant 'petit'..., formé sur le
rad. expr. pitch- qui évoque la petitesse. Cf. a. prov. pichon
adj. 'petit'... et arg. pechon 'garçon mercelot, apprenti-gueux'."
I suggest to compare this Provençal word with Old Italian
piccino 'little one, child'.

> and tchat, tchater.

"tchat [of which the verb tchatcher is a derivative]: (XXe siècle)
Francisation de l'anglais to chat."

Thus, you provide two English loans, a Spanish loan, and a Provençal
word to demonstrate that the [ts^] phoneme exists in French?

Tsk, tsk...

Wouldn't you find out some Old French words to support your
assertion?

> I google frantchesco to see what happens:
>
> http://www.utopsie.com/word/2008/07/21/la-prononciation-de-mon-nom/
>
> "Mon nom c'est Francisco. Comme la ville, tsé. Avec un 'i', commme
> dans fran - 6 - co. Pourtant, time and time again, je suis
> confronté à des gens qui m'appellent 'franTCHESco'. Je ne sais pas
> d'où ça sort, ni comment ça arrive, parce que généralement c'est
> des gens à qui je VIENS de me présenter qui m'appellent comme ça."
>
> People spontaneously call him Frantchesco when they should call
> him Fransisco !!

Didn't you notice that this blogger, Francisco Sottolichio, is a
Quebecois, not a French? Please make a search starting from

http://www.flickr.com/people/utopsie/

He might well be called 'franTCHESco' just because there is plenty
of people of Italian origin named Francesco in Canada! Moreover, his
surname, Sottolichio, is most certaily of Italian origins, being a
variant of Sottolicchio (attested in Istria, as I have just
verified, in the 18th century). This might be an additional valid
reason for people to change his name from (Spanish) 'fran-6-co' to
(Italian) 'franTCHESco'!

Pleade provide some valid examples from FRANCE!

> M. Brighenti, your survey of French rendition of Franc^esco is
> garbage.

I wouldn't say so. Why are you casting doubts on my personal
experience of that? Do you think I'm a liar?

You have still to show me that the [ts^] phoneme is part of the
genuine phonemic repertoire of French...

Regards,
Francesco