Re: Sos-

From: Petr Hrubis
Message: 62632
Date: 2009-01-28

Hello, Arnaud,

Good evening to you, as well. I've just found a little time to react. :-)

2009/1/28 Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...>:
> I agree with some of the examples :
> /túl-/ (back vowel) "red" < */sur/ < PIE *H1sr. "blood"
> /kut/ (back vowel) "horse" < */ku?s/ < PIE *kr.s "run"
> /tú/ (back vowel) "half" < */su-/ < PIE *sm-
> Zero grade is *u in Yeniseian.

Hm, let us stay downstairs now. I know you consider IE and Y related,
but let us stick to the topic of the regular change within Yeniseic
itself. Actually, this is the Cybalist. I take that back. This
discussion would be off-topic if we didn't mix IE in. :-P ;-)

> I also agree with :
> /uta/ (back vowel) "birch" < */xu:sa/ < Uralic *ku:s-
> /lat/ (back vowel) "vulva" < */rJOs/ < Uralic *low-k^ "hole"
> Loan-words behave the same.
> So a "back vowel" is mainly *u

Yes, quite often.

> Now I don't understand these examples :
> /but/ (back vowel) "hare" < */be?s/
> /dat/ (back vowel) "eye" < */des/
> Where is the back vowel of C-e-C ??

Sorry. Pumpokol back vowel, i.e. /u/ in /but/ and /a/ in /dat/.

> A.
> ========
> b) Let me ask you a question, Arnaud: If Pumpokol /t/ is not a reflex
> of PY (> also Ket) */s/, what is???
> =====
> It may also be different loanwords.

This is not an answer, Arnaud. Tell me, what is the actual reflex of
PY */s/ in Yeniseic? And if it is not /t/ next to back vowels, does
Pumpokol have any reflex of /s/ at all? Does PY have any */s/? You
know, the */s/ > */t/ development makes pretty good sense in the
context of Pumpokol and Yeniseic.

> /útu/ (back vowel) "to sleep" < */xus/
> I wonder what the relationship is with Mordvin ud-oms "sleep" and PIE swep-
> A.
> ========
>> whereas there is no doubt that s > l y t s depending on the dialect in
>> Uralic is certain.
> Let us not talk about /l/ here now. I agree it is far from certain
> that the /let/, /lat/ hydronyms are Yeniseic. We can also leave /y/
> and focus on the /t/ ~ /s/ variation, which IS attested in Yeniseic.
> ======
> I would rephrase : it remains to be proved that any single one of these
> lat-let hydronyms can receive a Yeniseic explanation that is better than the
> URalic one.


> And it's interesting to note these hydronyms are concentrated near the
> ostyak dialects that are l-sigmatic in Ob mid-stream.
> A.
> ======

I see. Good observation.

> Hence, if all the words that show this variation are somehow descended
> from Uralic, this pressupposes that Pumpokol was a neighbour to the
> /t/-reflex Uralic group, whereas Northern Yeniseic languages such as
> Ket and Yugh were neighbours to the /s/-dialects of
> Ugric/Samoyedic/Uralic/whatever subgroup may have been there.
> ====
> Pumpokol hydronyms, as far as I have understood the data, are mainly
> concentrated between the Ket and Tchulym rivers of the Ob valley, in the
> ostyak t-sigmatic.
> BUT, it should also be noted that there seems to be non-Uralic hydronyms
> with tat/dat pumpokol hydronyms in the Ishim valley of Irtysh.
> So this might be a spontaneous feature of Pumpokol ! God*it This is
> definitely a complicated case.

Well, have you read Vovin's article on the possible Yeniseic
membership in the Hunnic alliance? (I don't recall the precise
reference at the moment) If he is right, this may have interesting

> So, the phonological change /s/ > /t/ must have started somewhere (a
> cultural centre of some sort?) and began to spread. By the time it
> began to influence Yeniseic, its speakers had to have settled there
> for some time in order to become affected. This areal spread,
> supported by lexical diffusion, may have equally affected the native
> vocabulary resulting what is actually a regular correspondence today.
> Would that be acceptable for you?
> Still, I don't think you can just throw the correspondence away.
> ===
> I agree
> even though I'm still expecting some further explanations about the cases
> which don't work !
> A.
> ======

I hope to get to them as soon as I have some spare time, again.


> /cía-N/ < */si-/ "four" (front vowel, anlaut)
> /ciku/ < */s[U]Ga/ "year" (front vowel, anlaut)
> /cel/ < */so?ol/ "sleigh" (front vowel, anlaut)
> => this last one looks like Turcic.

Dear Arnaud, this is typical you. :-) You throw a claim here and don't
give it a proper back up. Which Turkic word do you have in mind? The
/KUzak/ etymon or the /K(i)aN/ one? (

>> I'm still waiting for a conditioning factor in Yeniseic.

Mostly the factor is the back/front opposition in (Pre-)Pumpokol, but
as I mentioned above, I'm going to get back to it some time soon.

>> The next argument is this is not at all the only LW from Uralic.
>> Many words dealing with Siberian realia are borrowed.
> Please, be more specific as to what exactly "many" means and which
> words are borrowed from which languages. That "river" is a borrowing
> is only an opinion. "Snow" looks plausible, indeed, but these are two
> words. Animals, ok, realia can be borrowed, the usual source being the
> culturally more prestigious language. While rivers keep their names
> when you arrive, why would you not force the few leftover aborigines
> to use your terminology for the goods you want to trade?
> =======
> I suppose Uralic people will appreciate your approach of the "few leftover
> aborigines" !!
> Bist du uebermuetig oder uebermuedet ?
> Arnaud
> ======

Where's the problem, Arnaud? What I meant was that the few last bits
of an original population, when surrounded by a majority of, say,
Uralic speakers, would be willing to adopt the vital vocabulary in
order to trade and, after all, survive. So, the fact that Yeniseians
have borrowed from Uralic doesn't in itself constitute a sufficient
proof they are not native to Siberia. They may just come from a
different part of it or have gradually adopted to survive in the
overwhelmingly non-Yeniseic land (whether it once was Yeniseic or
not). Consider the situation of Basque in Iberia. Heavily romanized,
but still, much longer there than Romance...

> ok
> I hope my answer provides some clues.

Yes, thank you. I must make a list of your comparand to be able to
return to them whenever necessary. :-)

Best wishes,