--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Koenraad Elst" <koenraad.elst@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
> <fournet.arnaud@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Koivulehto, like everybody else who proposes loan connections
> > between IE and Uralic languages, make the unwarranted assumption
> > that loans are always from (the more developed) IE to (the less
> > developed) Uralic language
> > Torsten
> >
> >
>
> In the case of Indo-Iranian, that does seem to be the case. Maybe
> those Indo-Aryans and Iranians who came in contact with Uralians,
> and who did impart plenty of loanmwords to them, also borrowed from
> them, but they never took those Uralic loans to Iran and India,
> because they were emigrants *from* there, not migrants on the way
> there.
Yeah, right.
Burrows, The Sanskrit Language
on that subject, p. 24 - 27
'Evidence is both more abundant and easier to interpret when it comes
to early Indo-Iranian contacts with Finno-ugrian. Here it is possible
to point out a considerable number of words in Finno-ugrian which can
be shown to have been borrowed from Indo-Iranian at this stage. The
most important of the Finno-ugrian words which have been ascribed to
Indo-Iranian are as follows :
(1) Finn. sata "100", Lapp. cuotte, Mordv. s´ado, C^er. s^üðö, Zyry.
s´o, Voty. s´u, Vog. sa:t, s^a:t, Osty. sòt, sàt, Hung. száz : Skt.
s´atám, Av. sat&m.
(2) Mordv. azoro, azor "lord", Voty. uzïr, Zyry. ozïr "rich"; Vog.
ōter, å:ter "hero" : Skt. ásura, "lord", Av. ahura- "id".
(3) Finn. vasara "hammer", Lapp. væc^er, Mordv. viz´ir, uz´er :
Skt. vájra- "Indra's weapon", Av. vazra- "club, mace".
(4) Finn. porsas, Zyry. pors´, porys´, Voty. pars´, paris´ "pig" was
ascribed to an Aryan *pars´a- ( Lat. porcus) and this is now attested
by Khotanese pa:'sa-.
(5) Finn. oras "(castrated) boar", Mordv. ure:s´ "id" :
Skt. vara:há-, Av. vara:za- "boar".
(6) Finn. utar, Mordv. odar, C^er. vodar "udder" :
Skt. ú:dhar "id";
(7) Finn. ora, Mordv. uro, Hung. ár "awl" :
Skt. á:ra: "id" (= OHG a:la, etc.);
(8) Hung. ostor "whip", Vog. oster, C^er. wos^tyr :
Skt. áşţra, Av. as^tra: "whip" (√aj- "to drive") ;
(9) Hung. arany "gold", Vog. sureń, sareń, Mordv. sirńe, Zyry. Voty.
zarńi :
Skt. híran.ya-, Av. zaranya-;
(10) Finn. arvo "value, price", Hung. ár, etc. :
Skt. arghá-, Osset. arγ "id" (Lith. algà, etc.) ;
(11) Finn. sisar "sister", Mordv. sazor, C^er. s^uz^ar :
Skt. svásar-, Av. xYan,har-;
(12) Hung. sör "beer", Voty. sur, Vog. sor, Osty. sar :
Skt. súra: "strong drink", Av. hura: ;
(13) Finn. sarvi "horn", Mordv. s´uro, C^er. s^ur, Lapp c^oarvve,
Hung. szarv :
Av. srū-, srva: "horn" (= Gk. kéras, etc.);
(14) Vog. s^uorp, s^ōrp "elk" :
Skt. s´arabhá- "a kind of deer" (from the root of the last) ;
(15) Mordv. sed' "bridge" :
Skt. sétu-, Av. hae:tu-;
(16) Mordv. v&rgas "wolf", Zyry. vörkas´:
Skt. vr.´ka-, Av. v&hrka- ;
(17) Zyry. Voty. turïn "grass" : Skt. tr.´n.a-;
(18) Zyry. vörk "kidney" :
Skt. vr.kká-, Av. v&r&ðka- "id";
(19) Vog. tas "stranger" :
Skt. da:sá- "non-Aryan, slave";
(20) Hung. vászon "linen" :
Skt. vásana- "garment, cloth".
(21) Fi. mehiläinen "bee", Mordv. meks^, C^er. müks^, Zyry. Voty.
mus^, Hung. méh :
Skt. máks.-, máks.a:, máks.ika: "bee, fly", Av. maxs^ī "fly";
(22) Fi. siika-nen "beard of grain, etc.", Mordv. s´uva, C^er. s^u,
Zyry. s´u :
Skt. s´ūka- "id";
(23) Mordv. s´a:va, s´eja "goat" :
Skt. chá:ga-.
The detailed problems raised by these and other comparisons are not
without complications, but certain general conclusions emerge clearly.
Most important of all is the fact that, taking the words as a whole,
the primitive forms which have to be assumed after a comparison of the
Finno-ugrian forms, are identical with those which have been
reconstructed for primitive Indo-Iranian, and are free of any of the
later sound changes which are characteristic of Iranian on the one
hand and Indo-Aryan on the other. This is quite well illustrated by
the lust word which represents a primitive form s´ata- (the
Indo-Iranian and Sanskrit form) and not sata- (the Iranian form). The
characteristic Iranian change of s to h is uniformly absent (3 Mordv.
azoro, 11 Mordv. sazor, 15 Mordv. sed', etc.). Likewise
characteristic Indo-Aryan changes such as of z´h, jh to h are not to
be found (5 Finn. oras, etc.). There is therefore not the slightest
doubt that the period when these borrowings took place was the
primitive Indo-Iranian period, and it appears probable that the seat
of this primitive Indo-Iranian must have been in the region of the
middle Volga and the Urals for this contact to have been possible.
One point that is noticeable when looking at a few of these words is
that the change of Indo-European l, ļ to Aryan r, r. has already taken
place (7 Finn. ora, 9. Vog. sareń, etc., 16. Mordv. vargas). This is a
change which is complete in Iranian, but incomplete in Indo-Aryan.
That is to say that there were dialects in early Indo-Aryan which
preserved IE l (not ļ), as well as those (the Rigvedic) which agreed
with Iranian in this respect. The Finno-ugrian forms show that this
feature must have already been widespread in the earlier, Indo-Aryan
period, and the existence of r-forms in the Aryan of the Near East
corroborates this. It cannot however have been universal, for in that
case no l-forms would have been found in Sanskrit at all.
It is usually quite clear that these words have been borrowed by
Finno-ugrian from Indo-Iranian and not vice versa. We have equivalents
of the words in other IE languages, and before being borrowed into
Finno-ugrian they have undergone the changes characteristic of the
Aryan branch. Even where an Indo-Iranian word has no actual equivalent
in the other IE languages, its structure and the possibility of
deriving it from a known IE root will often show it to be an old
inherited word. For instance Skt. vájra-, Av. vazra-, is formed with
the well-known suffix -ra (IE -ro), and can be derived from the IE
root which appears in Gk. (w)ágnumi "break, smash". There are however
a few words in the above list where it is not possible to be certain
in this way. Nothing like the Indo-Iranian word for "bee" (No. 21) is
found in any other IE language, and this makes it more likely on the
whole that in this case the Indo-Iranians have adopted a Finno-ugrian
word. Similar considerations apply to Nos. 22 (Skt. s´ūka-) and 23
(Skt. chá:ga-). There may be further examples of Finno-ugrian words in
Indo-Iranian, but the matter has never been investigated from this
point of view. As plausible equations we may mention:
Skt. kapha- "phlegm", Av. kafa-, Pers. kaf "foam, scum" :
Hung. háb "foam, froth, cream", Veps. kob´e "wave, foam", Sam. (Kam.)
khòwü "foam";
Skt. kú:pa "pit, well" :
Fi. kuoppa "pit", Lapp guöppe, C^er. kup, Voty. gop, etc.;
Skt. s´ala:ka: "splinter, etc":
Hung. szilank "chip, splinter", Fi. sale, 3. saleen "id", etc.
In cases like these, and others could be added, no IE etymology has
been found for the Sanskrit words. Since it is certain that we must
assume long contact between the early Indo-Iranians and the
neighbouring Finno-ugrians, and since there is no reason why the
movement of words should have been entirely one way, we should
consider Finno-ugrian to be a likely source of Aryan words in cases
like the above where striking similarity in form and meaning is found.
1 Borrowings are likely to have occurred in both directions, and
usually it is difficult to decide which family has been the borrower.
As an example of a probable loan from Finno-ugrian we may quote Engl.
whale, O.N. hvalr, O. Pruss. kalis : Av. kara- "mythical fish living
in the Ran,ha: (= Volga) : Finn. kala "fish" etc. The restriction of
the meaning indicates that the IE languages are the borrowers, and it
is likely that Iranian and the northern IE languages have done so
separately.'
> By contrast, Germanics who were in touch with Uralians were still
> young (pre-Lautverschiebung, which had yet to take place to turn
> kant- into hand-, see below)
Yes, but the unshifted loans were of course made after the shift, and
since the shift took place during the move westwards into NWB
territory, those unshifted forms were borrowed in Europe.
> and on their way to their historical
> European habitat, passing through Uralic territory while on their
> way from Central Asia and beyond.
>
> Loans from Uralic were taken westward by east-to-west IE migrants.
> No Uralic loans were taken eastward, because there was in the time
> concerned no west-to-east IE migration. Similar with Semitic: while
> there may be a few Semitic loans in pan-IE (six, seven), later
> loans into specific IE languages affect only those to the west
> (wine), not Indo-Aryan or Tocharic, because the latter never passed
> through Semitic or Semitic-influenced territory.
You should read Møller. If that doesn't open your eyes, nothing will.
> =======
> >
> > You probably fail to remember I clearly stated that Germanic has
> > quite a lot of (often archaic-looking) Uralic LWs.
> > Handi from *kam-t- "hand"
> > etc.
>
> Thanks for that one, see above. Complete list?
>
> > And there is no particular reason IE languages were more
> > developped than URalic languages if you accept the idea that PIE
> > split earlier than - 4000
> > BC.
> > And if you agree on early LWs, then you'll have problems with the
> > location of Germanic...
> >
>
> Coming from a more hospitable climate to the south, and more in
> contact with yet other centres of civilization, the IEs had a wider
> horizon, a more variegated economy and a more developed culture.
I saw Loriot's 85th birthday on German TV. In the war, when he was on
the Eastern front, he read the German and European classics. Obviously
he had a wider horizon, a more variegated economy and a more developed
culture than some of the peoples he visited, or?
> Location of Germanic was once, as I recall Arnaud himself has said
> on this list, pretty far to the east, witness exchanges with
> Altaic, Yeniseian and (as per Chang Tsung-tung) Chinese.
>
Exchanges, yes. If you look at Chang Tsung-tung matching pairs,
invariably the Pokorny IE form is the most complex. Now this may be
because reconstructed Archaic Chinese is barely 1500 years old, but
there's another thing: there are sometimes more than one root on the
Chinese side, never on the IE side. That indicates the loans went east.
Torsten