--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> On 2008-12-15 18:39, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > Proto-Germanic accent was initial. Let's be more specific.
> > The accent of some ancestor of Germanic was not.
>
> Well, it did not become initial till after VL, which means --
> fairly recently. Of course if one exclusively reserves the name
> "Proto-Germanic" for the very last common ancestor of the
> historically known languages, the PGmc. so defined had initial
> stress, but perhaps it would be an exercise in hairsplitting to
> call a stage older by just a couple of centuries "pre-PGmc."
Actually Proto-PGmc or PPGmc, to split another hair.
> > Possibly the accent
> > of some major donor of loans to Proto-Gmc. wasn't either. Now wrt.
> > glaesum there's ODa. glar "glass", wrt. Hase/hare the
> > corresponding Latin is *k^a[s]-n- > ca:n-, thus with matching
> > /a/'s as in Kuhn'slist,
>
> It may be a schwa secundum after all. There are some Gmc. forms
> with /e/ (ON hjasi), suggesting *k^es-o:[n]/*k^&s-n-ós. Then the
> Latin word (which is not as exact match for the Gmc. one) would
> represent *k^&s-nó-. Skt. s'as'a- could even reflect *k^eso-.
>
> > and I can't think up any example of a Gmc. noun with Verner
> > alternation that is without indicators that it might be a loan;
> > could you cite an example?
>
> You don't know 'wheel' (for example; there are many more)? There'a
> a whole thick book about such nouns (S. Schaffner, 2001, _Das
> Vernersche Gesetz und der innerparadigmatische grammatische Wechsel
> des urgermanischen im Nominalbereich_, Innsbruck: Meid).
I only got around to OCR'ing parts of it; here's the index:
'Inhaltsverzeichnis
Vorwort
Symbole, Quellen, Abkürzungen, Literaturverzeichnis
I Das Vernersche Gesetz und die Vertretung des urgermanischen
grammatischen Wechsels in den altgermanischen
Einzelsprachen
II Der innerparadigmatische grammatische Wechsel der germanischen
Nomina vor dem Hintergrund der urindogermanischen Akzent-
und Ablautklassen
III Die germanischen a-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel
III Die maskulinen a-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel
*axa-(?) : *aGa- (bzw *aGu-) "Barsch" :
*axila- : *aGila- "Ähre, Granne"
*axwala- : *aGwala- "Haken, Gabel"
*ansa- : *anza- "Balken"
*Bar(u)xa- : *BaruGa- "verschnittener Eber"
*Buþla- : *Buðla-() "Aufenthaltsort, Haus"
*ðara/uþa- : *ðarða- "Speer, Spieß"
*Gaysa-{?) : *Gayza- "Ger, Speer"
*Gunþa- : *Gunða- "Eiter, Geschwür"
*xafra-(?) : *xaBra- "Bock"
*xanxista- : *xanGista- "Hengst"
*xarþa-/*xara/uþa- : *xarða- "Wald, Bergwald"
*xaruxa- : *xaruGa- "Opferstätte, Heiligtum"
*xixara- : *xiGara- "Häher, Elster, Specht"
*xufila- : *xuBila- "Hügel"
*xurþila- : *xurðila- "Hürde, Rahmen"
*ki:þla- : *ki:ðla- "Keil"
*mayxwa-(?) : *mayGwa-(?) "Möwe"
*munþa- : *munða-(?) "Mund"
*o:sa(n)- : *o:za(n)- "Mündung; Anfang"
*skayþa- : *skayða- "Scheidung"
*staþla- : *staðla- "Stehen, Stand"
*swefla-(?) : *sweBla- "Schwefel"
*tuxila- : *tuGila- "Band, Riemen, Zügel"
*þre:xila- (*þraxila-?) : *þreGila- "Diener, Knecht"
*ux(w)na- : *ufna- : *uG(w)na- "Ofen"
*wexila- : *weGila- "Rohrweihe, Fischadler"
III Die neutralen a-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel
*alþra- : *alðra- "Alter, Lebensalter"
*anþiya- n. "Stirn" : *anðiya- m. n. "Ende, Rand"
*Basia- : *Bazia- "Beere"
*Bi:þla- : *Biðla- "Beil, Schwert"
*Blo:þa- : *Blo:ða- "Blut"
*Brawþa- : *Brawða- "Brot"
*Bruþa- : *Bruða-(?) "Brühe"
*ðu:sa- : *ðu:za- "(Wind)Stille"
*fanxa- : *fanGa- "Fang"
*ferxwa- : *ferGwa- "Welt, Leben"
*fo:þra- : *fo:ðra- "Behälter; Futteral, Scheide"
*frewsa-(?) : *fruza- "Frost"
*Gle:/asa- : *Gle:/aza- "Bernstein; Glas"
*-xanxa- : *-xanGa- "-hang"
*xliþa- : *xliða- "Deckel, Decke"
*xrenþ/ða- : *xrunþ/ða- "Rind"
*xrewþa- : *xrewða- "Ried, Schilf, Röhricht":
*xulxwa- (*xulxwa-?) : *xulGwa- (*xulGwa-?) "Loch, Höhle"
*xurxwa- (*xurxwa-?) : *xurGwa- (*xurGwa-?) "Schlamm,
Schleim, Schmutz"
*xwexwla- : *xweGw(u)la- "Rad"
*i:sarna- : *i:zarna-(?) "Eisen"
*yexwla- : *yeGwla- "Julfest"
*kasa- : *kaza- "Gefäß"
*kenþa- : *kenða-(?) "Kind"
*kurþra- : *kurðra- "Herde"
*-kusa- : *-kuza- "Wahl, Entscheidung"
*le:'þa- : *-le:'ða- "Landbesitz"
*mati-saxsa- : *mati-zaxsa- "Messer"
*maþla- : *maðla- "Versammlungsort"
*rasna- : *razna- "Haus; Balken, Planke"
*rawsa- : *rawza- "Rohr"
*taxra-/*taxru- : *taGra-/*taGru- "Träne, Zähre"
*ti:fra-(?) : *ti:bra- n "Opfergabe, Opfertier"
III Thematische Adjektiva mit grammatischem Wechsel
*aBuxa- : *aBuGa- "verkehrt, abgewandt"
*alþa- : *alða- "alt"
*Balþa- : *Balða- "kühn, mutig, dreist"
*ðawþ(?) : *ðawða- "tot":
*ðusiga- : *ðuziGa- "töricht, dumm"
VII Die maskulinen u-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel
*ferþ/ðu- : *furðu- "Fjord, Bucht; Furt"
*Grunþu- : *Grunðu- "Grund, Boden"
*xaþu- : *xaðu- "Kampf, Krieg"
*xunxru- : *xunGru- "Hunger"
*kwiþu- : *kwiðu- "Bauch, Magen; Mutterleib"
*plo:xu-/a-(?) : *plo:Gu-/a-(?) "Pflug"
*swarþu- : *swarðu- "Schwarte, Kopfhaut"
*wre:þu- : *wre:ðu- "Herde, Schar"
*laGu- "See, Wasser" : *lax(w)o:- "Wasserlacke"
U-stämmige Adjektiva mit grammatischem Wechsel
*þursu-(?) : *þurzu- "trocken, dürr"
*tanxu- : *tanGu-(?) "zäh, anhaftend"
*þranxu- : *þranGu-(?) "gedrängt"
VIII Die maskulinen n-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel
*an-anþan- : *anðan- "Atem Eifer, Furcht"
*e:þman- : *e:ðman- "Atem, Hauch"
*Gre:f(iy)an- : *Gre:B(iy)an- "Graf"
*xasan- : *xazan- "Hase"
*xersan- : *xerzn- "Hirn, Schädel, Scheitel"
*xri:þan- : *xriðan- "Zittern, Fieber"
*xwerfan- : *xwerBan- "Drehung, Wirbel, Wendung"
*knuþ/ðan- : *knuttan- "Knoten, Knorren"
*kunþ(ii)an- : *kunð(iy)an-(?) "Künder, Zeuge"
*luxan- : *luGan- "Flamme, Lohe"
*maxan- : *ma/o:Gan- "Mohn"
*mu:xan- : *mu:Gan- : *mukkan- "Haufen, Menge"
*sawþan- : *sawðan- "(Sod)brennen, Wallen"
*slaxan- : *slaGan- "Schläger, Mörder"
*-tuxan- : *-tuGan- "Führer"
*wri:xan- : *wri:Gan- "Kniekehle, Rist"
VIII Neutraler n-Stamm: *awsan-(?) : *awzan- "Ohr"
IX Reste anderer Konsonantenstämme mit grammatischem Wechsel
IX Neutrale -es/os-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel?
*xrenþaz/-iz-(?) : *xrunþ/ðaz/-iz-(?) "Rind"
*kelþaz/-iz- : *kulðaz/-iz-(?) "Kind"
*þenxaz/-iz-(?) : *þenGaz/-iz-(?) "festgesetzte Zeit; Versammlung"
IX *nikwus- : *nikwuz- "Wassergeist, Wasserungeheuer"
IX Fortsetzer amphikinetischer- -nt-Stämme mit grammatischem Wechsel
*alunþ-(?) : *alanð-/*alunð- "Aland"
*e:banþ-(?) : *e:banð-/-unð-(?) "Abend"
*tanþ-/*tanð- : tunð- "Zahn"
*wisanð- : *wizunð- "Wisent"
IX Urgermanisch *stuþ-: *stuð- "Stütze, Säule, Pfeiler"
X Wortindices'
Why so few? Why so many a's?
And a good deal of them seem to be NWEurope or Germanic only.
> > In the meanwhile,
> > 1) *xrinþiz- ~ *xrunþiz-, as if they should be divided
> > *xr-inþ-iz- ~ *xr-unþ-iz-, in which case the i/u alternation is a
> > case of Gmc. suffix vowel alternation and we can leave out Verner
> > effects.
>
> I doubt if you can divide them like that, since I neever, niver,
> never in my leaf, life, loaf saw an -nt- participle become an *-es-
> neuter.
There are only two s-neuters on the list beside *xrinþaz-, one is
*kelþaz, of which *kendaz might be suspected of being a variant,
although I can't see what kind of root *k- would represent.
Torsten